From: "L-Soft list server at Indiana University (1.8d)" To: "ARTF@MemoryAlpha.nil" File: "LOISCLA-GENERAL-L LOG0012B" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 00:18:15 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: No Name Available Subject: OT: Fandom article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In case anyone is interested I've found a very interesting book about women on-line, including an article about fandoms and fanfic. (They don't mention Lois & Clark.) The book, which I believe may be affiliated with "Wired" magazine, is called Wired Women: Gender and New Realities in Cyberspace, and is edited by Lynn Cherny and Elizabeth Reba Weise. The article is titled "Estrogen Brigades and 'Big Tits' Threads: Media Fandom Online and Off" and is written by Susan Clerc. I found the book after searching for information regarding the theories of gender communication and differences between men's and women's on-line communication for a presentation I did in a Theories of Communication class. During the presentation I mentioned L&C in passing and two other students said that they really liked the show :) BTW, another student presented a Marxist analysis of Disney, the corporation and the man, another presentation many folcs would've found interesting, as she really tore into him :) Christy attalanta@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 00:22:42 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: No Name Available Subject: Re: "Who's on first?" or was that "That's" was: Re: help with a grammar quest... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/7/00 11:51:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, judithwilliams@PRODIGY.NET writes: << > 5. The Superman suit that Clark wore was made by his mother. >> Of course, sentence 5 also has the problem of passive voice, so one could rewrite it to avoid the "that" phrase altogether. (Clark's mother made the Superman suit he wore.) Passive voice has become one of my new pet peeves, having just finished grading a dozen papers laden with passive voice... Christy attalanta@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 05:25:00 -0000 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Diyan Subject: Re: help with a grammar question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Coming late to this thread as I am, I've decided to take this as a challenge and reply without looking at the other replies >>>>Which should be used in the blank -- may or might > >Although her intentions ____ appear nefarious, he knew she was a genuine >red-letter saint. > >May or might? and why?? May is present, might is past. eg: Although her intentions might appear nefarious, he knew she was a genuine red-letter saint. Although her intentions may appear nefarious, he knows she is a genuine red-letter saint. (What is a red-letter saint?) Okay, checking my answer.... Well, it seems I was right. Sort of. In _Webster's New World Dictionary_, the first definition of "might" is that it is past tense of "may". However, the second definition says "might" is "generally equivalent to 'may' in meaning and use", so it seems you can use either. Now just what did they mean by "generally"?? (And yes, I know that periods and commas should be inside the quotation marks. I'm protesting.) _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 06:56:33 +1100 Reply-To: "jenerator@ozemail.com.au" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Jenny or Joe Stosser Subject: Re: help with a grammar question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with everyone else that "might" sounds better than "may" in this sentence, although, also like almost everyone else, I had no idea why. However, this post interested me, because don't they say that English is a constantly evolving language, (which is why non-grammarians say grammar books are useless)? Maybe (mightbe?) this is an example where the language is changing, and in who-knows-how-many-years if the same question was asked, more people would say the right answer is "may" instead of "might"? Jen jenerator@ozemail.com.au -*-This message is umop ap!sdn (Jenerator or Some1Else on IRC) -*- JenerEight on AIM -*- ICQ 11477318 Photos of David (8) and Megan (5) on the Stosser Family HomePage http//www.geocities.com/j_stosser Please sign our guestbook! -----Original Message----- From: LaNita Cornwall [SMTP:cornwall@WC.EDU] Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 6:13 AM To: LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: [LOISCLA-GENERAL-L] help with a grammar question Thank you for this explanation. I just knew it sounded right. Now there are several book editors that need to get this email. I'm reading more and more books lately with may used where might belongs. It drives me nuts. quinn -----Original Message----- From: Gerry Anklewicz [SMTP:Gerry.Anklewicz@NTEL.TDSB.ON.CA] Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 12:26 PM To: LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: help with a grammar question Let me jump into this discussion Might is a modal. In general, modals exist to introduce conditions and attitudes into the sentence. Might is the past form of may. A general rule to follow is that if the other verbs in the sentence are in the past tense, use might. Clark was afraid that they might never get married. Therefore, in answer to your query: >Although her intentions might appear nefarious, he knew she was a genuine red-letter saint. I would also consider "might have appeared" if you are looking at a completed in the past and not anymore. Such as: Although her intentions might have appeared nefarious in the past, he knew she was a genuine red-letter saint. Gerry LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU,Internet writes: >I'm in the midst of editing a fic and I keep running into this same issue. >I would really appreciate some help. > >Here's an example (not from the story, btw). Which should be used in the >blank -- may or might? I thought I understood this but now I'm >beginning to >wonder. > >Although her intentions ____ appear nefarious, he knew she was a genuine >red-letter saint. > >May or might? and why?? > >Carol > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:45:04 -0800 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Judith Williams Subject: Re: help with a grammar question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Divan wrote: > Okay, checking my answer.... > Well, it seems I was right. Sort of. In _Webster's New World Dictionary_, > the first definition of "might" is that it is past tense of "may". However, > the second definition says "might" is "generally equivalent to 'may' in > meaning and use", ----Some dictionaries, rather than listing grammatically correct usage, will list what is generally used. In other words, many people use it but it's not necessarily grammatically correct. For example, the word 'like' is generally used as a conjunction, but that is not grammatically correct. Way back in the 1950's an ad company promoted a campaign for Winston cigarettes with the slogan, 'Winston tastes good like a cigarette should.' Believe it or not, much of America went into shock at this blatant grammatical error. National newspapers featured editorials railing against this misuse. Time magazine had an article; newscasters spoke out deploring this first step on the road to grammatical h--l. I was a young English teacher then, fresh from graduate school and I thought the whole thing was a tempest in a teacup. I didn't believe that one little thing could re-shape our language. Boy, was I naive! It never pays to underestimate the American ability to pervert our language. Jude ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 03:10:31 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Jill Melena Subject: The floodgates have burst.... and my opinion spills forth. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, FOLCs. Many of you know me from Zoom's MBs or IRC, but this is my first time posting here (I'm not going to say how long I've been lurking ). In any case, I'm a little obsessed with language (*any* language!) so grammar has drawn me out. How sad. In any case, I'm with Phil and Ann that the sentence "Although her intentions ___ appear nefarious, he knew she was a genuine red-letter saint," needs 'appear' to become 'have appeared'. If you don't make that change, the sentence really says "He used to know she was a genuine red-letter saint, although her intentions may/might now appear nefarious." And I think that in order to "used to know" something, either he's forgotten he knew, or he's dead. I don't think there's any other way to no longer know something, because if it's not true he didn't 'know' it, he 'thought' or 'believed' it - and that's going right through semantics to philosophy! Once you've done that I don't think it matters whether you put a 'may' or 'might' in front of it. There's no change to the sentence either way. So why have two words, past and present tense, when it really doesn't matter? Because neither is going to convey the original meaning of the word in any case! English has changed so much through time that I couldn't even hazard a guess as to the original meaning of 'may/might', though I'd bet it didn't start as a modal but as a regular verb. However, if you want to be 'correct' rather than just following the populations general consensus (ignoring the fact that it being used by the masses *makes* it correct), then consider this; This sentence is grammatical (though perhaps not as common); "Although her intentions could have appeared nefarious, he knew she was a genuine red-letter saint." Also, "Can I go to the washroom?" means the same thing as "May I go to the washroom?" Language just isn't static, but at this moment it seems that 'might' in some contexts is equal to 'could', and 'may' in some contexts is equal to 'can'. Which means that 'might' *may/might/could* be more grammatical in your sentence. The hyphen question is frustrating, because it's not that Americans are doing it 'wrong' (though, as a Canadian, it pains me to admit that), just that things are slowly changing. Rule 3 said to use them in 'certain compound words'. I think what generally happens is that when a compound word is created, it has a hyphen, but when it becomes common enough, the hyphen often gets dropped. If you look in a dictionary, you should even be able to find some that are still 'in transition', where they're 'correct' with or without the hyphen. Consider the *unbelievably* irritating statement "You did good." You did *not* do good. Unless you are running around helping people, you did **well**. Yet if you ask me how I am, I'll tell you "I'm good." And I'm sure my children will have no trouble saying "You did good." One who played the flute used to be called a 'floutist'. My dictionary now also reads 'flutist'... because that's what people insisted on saying! Being Canadian, I also get caught in the cross-fire between American and Brittish language. I say 'colour', but I refer to Z as both 'zee' and 'zed', and I say 'tomato' not 'tomahto'. I also use the word 'drove', not 'drived', and 'dove', not 'dived'. And now, since I just happen to know the answer, I'm wondering which of the above you guys would say is 'correct' (historically). Is it 'drove' or 'drived', 'dove' or 'dived'? A for the other quiz, I'm with you, Jude, on all your answers. At least if I'm wrong I won't be the only one wrong . And finally (I'm sorry it's so long!), Erin. Erin, I find myself in the reverse position; German is my fourth language, and it does not qualify as 'easy'! I mean, how many different words for 'the' do you really *need*?!? Does it really matter if a chair is masculin, feminine, or neutral? And what's with 'mogen' (sorry, no umlauts) - what a twisted modal! And what's with filling a sentence with every possible detail before finally letting us know the verb?!? German's no easier than English. It's probably no harder, either . All right, that's it. Really. :P -Lena _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:07:25 +0100 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Nicole Wolke Subject: Re: The floodgates have burst.... and my opinion spills forth. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey, Lena, nice to see you here :-) > And finally (I'm sorry it's so long!), Erin. Erin, I > find myself in the reverse position; German is my > fourth language, and it does not qualify as 'easy'! I > mean, how many different words for 'the' do you really > *need*?!? Does it really matter if a chair is > masculin, feminine, or neutral? And what's with > 'mogen' (sorry, no umlauts) - what a twisted modal! > And what's with filling a sentence with every possible > detail before finally letting us know the verb?!? > German's no easier than English. It's probably no > harder, either . See, I'm German and I must say I bow to everyone who is able to learn my own language. I think it is very confusing and not at all logical! On the other hand English was very easy for me. But that's probably just as long as I'm not getting too deep into it. Every (foreign) language is starting to get difficult as soon as you're trying to know what you're doing. I think that's because a language is *not* about grammar rules, but that's what they teach you in school. It's so much more effective (and so much easier) to learn a language by hearing, reading and talking only. In my case it definitely works that way. As long as I continue babbling my English as it popps into my head, I'm doing fine, but the moment I start thinking... it's gone. As could be seen when I tried to say a few coherent words to Dean Cain in summer . Nicole (happily refusing to think since then) -- AKA CKgroupie on IRC/AIM NKWolke@t-online.de Are you always searching for news about Dean Cain? And you don't haven enough time to search? Here's your solution: Go to "The Dean Cain News Page" http://members.tripod.de/CKgroupie/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:59:51 +0100 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Kaethel Subject: Re: "Who's on first?" or was that "That's" was: Re: help with a grammar question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, trying that one out - just for fun, because I'm really bad at grammar rules. So let's see if I have some intuition (rules? what rules? ). S P O I L E R S P A C E > > 1. Clark Kent (who , that) loved Lois Lane was also Superman. Clark Kent, who loved Lois Lane, was also Superman. > > 2. Lois ( who, that ) was a reporter loved Clark. Lois, who was a reporter, loved Clark. > > 3. The Daily Planet ( which, that ) was a great metropolitan newspaper > employed both of them. The Daily Planet, which was a great metropolitan newspaper, employed both of them. > > 4. Perry White ( who, that ) was a huge Elvis fan was like a father to both > reporters. Perry White, who was a huge Elvis fan, was like a father to both reporters. > > 5. The Superman suit ( that, which ) Clark wore was made by his mother. The Superman suit that Clark wore was made by his mother. Okay, how bad did I do? Helene :) kaethel@club-internet.fr So We must meet apart - You there - I here - With just the Door ajar That Oceans are - and Prayer - And that White Sustenance - Despair - Emily Dickinson - I cannot live without you ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 06:28:11 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "C.C. Malo" Subject: Re: "Who's on first?" or was that "That's" was: Re: help with a grammar question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ann, thanks for your explanation of who's on first. I'm with Jude on her answers to your quiz, btw. But what about this? The man (that, whom) he respected walked past him. Is this a restrictive clause? I prefer 'whom' here but should it be that? Interesting discussion on the evolution of grammar. Lena's comments reminded me of my attempts for a couple of years to learn German. Very challenging. :) I guess the verb goes at the end of the sentence to build suspense. Forces you to listen to what the other guy's saying. :) Carol ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 06:45:42 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "C.C. Malo" Subject: Passive Voice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not sure whether to apologize for yet another question but I'm asking them all at once in an attempt to figure out what I'm doing when I'm editing a story. I don't want to be too picky or arbitrary. I promise this is my last question. Anyway, it's Christy's fault. Christy wrote: <> Now I understand why you want to be careful using the passive voice but should it be avoided altogether? Carol ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 07:28:06 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "Ann E. McBride" Subject: Re: help with a grammar question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/8/00 12:25:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, zimri@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Although her intentions ____ appear nefarious, he knew she was a genuine > > The key word in the above sentence is "although." It sets up the context in which we can see that her intentions appearing to be nefarious is actually not the factual reality. (Did that make any sense at all?) Following that clause we have the very strong statement, "He knew..." and a contradiction of the condition found in the beginning of the sentence. Given that setup, the actual form should be, as Phil said yesterday, "might have." Might is certainly the past tense form of may. But in this particular situation, the simple past form of may isn't good enough. When dealing with conditions contrary to fact, may is hardly ever appropriate. Might then becomes sort of the present tense and one needs to use might have for the past. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:27:01 -0700 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Vicki Krell Subject: Re: The floodgates have burst.... and my opinion spills forth. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" I'm really enjoying this discussion, which is also making me question my own use of certain words and phrases!! I re-read this three times because now I'm paranoid! ;-) Lena, this wasn't too long. It was interesting!! I have to agree that some Americans have a unique yet irritating knack of mangling their (our) own language. Some of the things I read and hear that make me crazy are: the aforementioned "you did good;" "it don't matter;" any use of the word "ain't" which I can't believe is even in the dictionary now, and when writers use "they" instead of "he" or "she." I'm particularly annoyed by the last one because my favorite high school English teacher made a point of correcting in RED any errors we made by writing that in a paper. To answer your question, Lena, I use the words "drove" and "dove" also. :) Vicki ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:57:57 -0700 Reply-To: erink@ida.net Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Erin Klingler Subject: another grammar question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, after the past couple days' grammar dicussions, my mind is reeling , and I can't decide something. Is 'who's' a correct contraction for 'who has'? Wow, a 4th grader should know that, but my mind refuses to make things easy this morning. Erin :) __________________ erink@ida.net Visit my LNC/Kerth Website: www.ida.net/users/davek ***** "It's not the years that count, it's the moments...right now, as they happen." __________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:01:21 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Wendy Richards Subject: Re: Passive Voice On Fri, 8 Dec 2000 06:45:42 EST, C.C. Malo wrote: > >Now I understand why you want to be careful using the passive voice but >should it be avoided altogether? > That depends on the context, and the reason for wanting to avoid it. Christy's comment certainly made me blink, because I positively *encourage* students to use the passive voice in essays and dissertations. This is the preferred way of presenting academic work. Fiction-writing is, admittedly, another matter; I would find it hard to imagine what a story written entirely in the passive voice would look like. On the other hand, I would have no problem whatsoever with occasional descriptive passages being written in that format. So, why might it be felt that the passive voice should be avoided in fiction? Wendy ----------- Wendy Richards wendy@kingsmeadowcr.freeserve.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:17:16 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Wendy Richards Subject: Re: The floodgates have burst.... and my opinion spills forth. On Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:27:01 -0700, Vicki Krell wrote: >>>and when writers use "they" instead of "he" or "she." I'm particularly annoyed by the last one because my favorite high school English teacher made a point of correcting in RED any errors we made by writing that in a paper.<<< Ah, but this one doesn't irritate me so much because I know why it's come about. The use of 'they' instead of 'he' is an attempt to avoid using gender-specific pronouns; historically, 'he' was supposed to encompass 'she' (and still does in legal documents). In statutes (ie legislation) in this country and in some other English-speaking countries some of whose legislation I've looked at, provisions relating to individuals are written in the singular, and 'he' is always used, no matter whether the provision could apply to men and women alike, and even on occasions where it could be more relevant to women. To use 'he or she' is cumbersome, and the alternative, s/he, looks clumsy and is of utterly no use when speaking as opposed to writing. So, unless or until some better alternative comes along, I'm very sympathetic to using 'they' as a singular alternative for 'he or she'. > >To answer your question, Lena, I use the words "drove" and "dove" also. :) I have *never* heard 'drived'! Is that actually used? As for 'dove/dived', 'dived' is the correct past participle in the UK. My dictionary tells me that 'dove' is a US derivation - yet another difference! Wendy ---------- Wendy Richards wendy@kingsmeadowcr.freeserve.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:19:40 -0800 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Judith Williams Subject: Re: The floodgates have burst.... and my opinion spills forth. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lena wrote: I'm wondering which of the above you guys would say is 'correct' (historically). Is it 'drove' or 'drived', It was 'drove' and 'dove' back when I was young and that should qualify as 'historically'. :) Jude ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:52:42 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "Ann E. McBride" Subject: Re: "Who's on first?" or was that "That's" was: Re: help with a grammar question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> Yes, this is a restrictive clause because it gives important information and therefore should probably be that. However, with people, you can use either pronoun. It's only with things that you have to use the right one. :) Ann ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:58:39 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Gerry Anklewicz Subject: Re: help with a grammar question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit RE: >As for the "present tense" pet peeve, I completely agree, though >thankfully, >it's fairly rare in L&C fanfic. Hopefully it's fairly rare in "real >life". >too, but you never know -- my husband and I just finished grading term >papers >for his Astronomy class last week, and just one of the students wrote his >paper in present tense. Needless to say, Jim graded him down for it (it's >not an English class, but still!) and THE GUY ARGUED WITH HIM! He >insisted >that he'd been told by every English professor he'd ever had that you >always >write papers in present tense. To Jim's credit, he declined to make a >comment about our English faculty here , and just told the young man >that >he'd either been taught wrong or he'd learned it wrong, but regardless, it >was *wrong*. Sheesh! (I still think Jim should have told him that he >was >right, and the other 49 students who all wrote in past tense were >obviously >idiots. ;)) > >Kathy > Kathy, English teachers and professors tell students to write about novels, plays and film in the present tense. The convention is to write as if the story was still going on. That's the only explanation I can give. I think the students misinterpreted what they heard. Gerry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:12:56 -0800 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Nancy Smith Subject: Re: "Who's on first?" or was that "That's" was: Re: help with a grammar question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you, Ann! This is one area where my computer and I are constantly fighting. My grammar checker always tells me I can't use "whom", that it must me "that" when referring to a police officer a fireman or a reporter, etc. I always go with "whom", but I'm glad to know I was right after all. Nan Ann E. McBride wrote: > <> > > Yes, this is a restrictive clause because it gives important information and therefore should probably be that. However, with people, you can use either pronoun. It's only with things that you have to use the right one. :) > > Ann ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:17:18 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Gerry Anklewicz Subject: Re: Grammar question In-Reply-To: <002901c0609e$b5de06e0$b0f8fd3f@v1t9j4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU,Internet writes: >What a treat! When Gerry and Ann speak, everyone listens because they are >definitely experts. > >Wendy wrote: Now, all I need is for someone to explain to me when >Americans >use hyphens >and when they don't... > >----Wouldn't we all like to know the why and wherefore of that one. I >usually just let my spell checker tell me, although it is frequently wrong >about other things, and sometimes I fight with it about this one. :) >Jude > I blush. I don't think I'm an expert, grammar is the tool I use in my everyday work and like Ann I know where to look for the answers when I need them. Gerry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:27:07 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Gerry Anklewicz Subject: Re: help with a grammar question In-Reply-To: <23.49ab1da.276184a8@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit RE: who and that According to my sources "that" can be usedto refer to people, animals and things while "who" refers to people. "Which" by the way, never refers to people. Personally, I use "that" for things and animals and "who" for people. Gerry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:02:41 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Gerry Anklewicz Subject: Re: Passive Voice In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here are some parts of a handout I use with my students re passive voice. The voice referred to as active or passive is the voice you "hear" when you read. When this voice is active, the imaginary person speaking is "in charge", making things happen, making choices. When this voice is passive, things are done to the imaginary speaker. (a passive construction) He or she has little control over events. "by" is the only preposition that can be used for passive constructions, so it's a signal that passive voice is going on. It has removed the "doer" from the "action". e.g. Superman was killed by Lex Luthor. (God forbid!) These are times when the "doer" of the action is removed from the sentence. (By removing the "doer" science takes out the human variable from the experiment and from the equation.) Politicians also use the passive as a ploy to remove responsibility. Mainly for those reasons, fiction writers to avoid using the passive. Good writing keeps the doer in contact with the action. Having said this let me paraphrase George Orwell. Never use the passive where you can use the active. Break the rule sooner than say anytyhing outright barbarous. (Politics and the English Language) Basically, active voice is much stronger and has a greater impact. Does that help? Gerry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:46:22 -0600 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Jessi Mounts Subject: Re: Email Services Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Erin said: >I'm sorry I wasn't any help. If somebody else has some sure-fire method, >we'll all want to know, too. > I can't tell you what *not* to do. Don't get a Hotmail address. I've got another address that I've literally never used but still check periodically (long story...) and it *still* gets spam mail. Argh! Jessi _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:56:25 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "Ann E. McBride" Subject: Re: Passive Voice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/8/00 6:45:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ccmalo@AOL.COM writes: > Now I understand why you want to be careful using the passive voice but > should it be avoided altogether? > > No, it should not be avoided altogether, but it should definitely be used sparingly and with great deliberation. Generally, passive voice, as its name implies, is a weaker construction than active voice. It emphasizes the object (receiver) of the action over the subject (doer) which tends to be weak. You would want to use passive voice if you wanted to emphasize the recipient of the action over the doer. You might also use it if you really didn't know who did the action or wanted to keep the person or thing performing the action anonymous. ex: The United Nations was founded by the victors of World War II. ( In this sentence, the writer is emphasizing that the UN was founded.) ex: Superman was subjected to a series of tests when he first appeared in Metropolis. ( We don't know who was testing Superman, so we have little choice but to use passive voice. The only alternative would be: Someone subjected Superman to a series of tests when he first appeared in Metropolis. -- which is even weaker.) A general rule of thumb is to avoid the passive voice most of the time, saving it for those special occasions described above. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:10:10 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "Ann E. McBride" Subject: Re: The floodgates have burst.... and my opinion spills forth. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/8/00 3:21:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, melenajill@YAHOO.CA writes: > Consider the *unbelievably* irritating statement "You > did good." You did *not* do good. Unless you are > running around helping people, you did **well**. > if you ask me how I am, I'll tell you "I'm good." The reason that one says "you did well" but "I'm good" is that "did" is an intransitive verb and "am" is a linking verb. Intransitive verbs (as well as transitive verbs) are followed by adverbs. Linking verbs are followed by adjectives. In "you did well," well modifies the verb - did. In "I'm good," good is an adjective modifying "I." Truthfully, if you're going to use "good" with the verb "to do," then you might as well go all the way and say, "You done good." > Being Canadian, I also get caught in the cross-fire > between American and Brittish language. I say > 'colour', but I refer to Z as both 'zee' and 'zed', > and I say 'tomato' not 'tomahto'. Tomahto is not unique to the UK. All of my relatives in Baltimore say tomahto too. > 'drove', not 'drived', and 'dove', not 'dived'. > > >> And now, since I just happen to know the answer, I'm >> wondering which of the above you guys would say is >> 'correct' (historically). Is it 'drove' or 'drived', >> 'dove' or 'dived'? >> > Well, "drived" is not a word, so I am glad you don't use it. "Dove" is the less formal past tense of "to dive." "Dived" is the formal form. At one time, "dove" was not acceptable in formal speech or writing, but that has been changing in the US over the last 15 years or so. Ann Ann ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:45:32 +1100 Reply-To: "jenerator@ozemail.com.au" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Jenny or Joe Stosser Subject: Re: The floodgates have burst.... and my opinion spills forth. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have come across someone using the term "hir" instead of "him or her". Anyone else ever seen this? Jen jenerator@ozemail.com.au -*-This message is umop ap!sdn (Jenerator or Some1Else on IRC) -*- JenerEight on AIM -*- ICQ 11477318 Photos of David (8) and Megan (5) on the Stosser Family HomePage http//www.geocities.com/j_stosser Please sign our guestbook! -----Original Message----- From: Wendy Richards [SMTP:wendy@KINGSMEADOWCR.FREESERVE.CO.UK] Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 4:17 AM To: LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: [LOISCLA-GENERAL-L] The floodgates have burst.... and my opinion spills forth. On Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:27:01 -0700, Vicki Krell wrote: >>>and when writers use "they" instead of "he" or "she." I'm particularly annoyed by the last one because my favorite high school English teacher made a point of correcting in RED any errors we made by writing that in a paper.<<< Ah, but this one doesn't irritate me so much because I know why it's come about. The use of 'they' instead of 'he' is an attempt to avoid using gender-specific pronouns; historically, 'he' was supposed to encompass 'she' (and still does in legal documents). In statutes (ie legislation) in this country and in some other English-speaking countries some of whose legislation I've looked at, provisions relating to individuals are written in the singular, and 'he' is always used, no matter whether the provision could apply to men and women alike, and even on occasions where it could be more relevant to women. To use 'he or she' is cumbersome, and the alternative, s/he, looks clumsy and is of utterly no use when speaking as opposed to writing. So, unless or until some better alternative comes along, I'm very sympathetic to using 'they' as a singular alternative for 'he or she'. > >To answer your question, Lena, I use the words "drove" and "dove" also. :) I have *never* heard 'drived'! Is that actually used? As for 'dove/dived', 'dived' is the correct past participle in the UK. My dictionary tells me that 'dove' is a US derivation - yet another difference! Wendy ---------- Wendy Richards wendy@kingsmeadowcr.freeserve.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:49:11 +1100 Reply-To: "jenerator@ozemail.com.au" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Jenny or Joe Stosser Subject: Re: The floodgates have burst.... and my opinion spills forth. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A friend sent this to me in amongst a bunch of jokes. I cut'n'pasted it on IRC and have been told by Nicky that it's perfectly correct. GERMAN FOR BEGINNERS... German is a relatively easy language. If you know Latin you're used to declensions and can learn German without great difficulty. That's what German teachers tell you at the first lesson. Then you start studying the der, die, das, den... and they tell you that everything follows a logical order. So it's easy. And to prove it, let's look at an example more closely: You sign up for first-year German and go out and buy the textbook. It's a beautiful, expensive, hard-bound book, published in Dortmund. The book mentions the customs of the Hottentots (Hottentotten in German). The book tells us that when opossums (Beutelratten) are captured, they are placed in cages (Kasten) with bars made of wood slats (Lattengitter) to keep them from escaping. These particular cages are called Lattengitterkasten in German and when there are opossums inside them they are know as Beutelrattenlattengitterkasten. One day, the Hottentot police arrested a would-be murderer (Attentater), who allegedly tried to kill a Hottentot mother (mutter). Her son is good-for-nothing stutterer (Stottertrottel), so his mother is, therefore, a Hottentottenstottertrottelmutter and her would-be murderer is a Hottentottenstottertrottelmutterattentater. Easy, right? So the police captured the suspect and put him, temporarily, in an opossum cage (Beutelrattenlattengitterkasten) for safe-keeping until they could take him to jail, but the prisoner escaped! A search ensued and a Hottentot warrior cried out, "I have captured the murder suspect (den Attentater)!" "Yes? Which one?" asked the chieftain. "The Beutelrattenlattengitterkastenattentater!" replied the warrior. "What? The murder suspect who was in the opossum cage?" asked the Hottentot chieftain. "That's right," said the warrior, "the Hottentottenstottertrottelmutterattentater." By now you know enough German to understand that he's talking about the would-be murderer of the mother of the good-for-nothing Hottentot stutterer, right? "Oh, I see", says the Hottentot chieftain, "why didn't you say so right away? You could have begun by saying that you had captured the ... wait for it....... Hottentottenstottertrottelmutterbeutelrattenlattengitterkastenattentater!" As you can see, German is a very easy language. All you have to do is pay a little attention. Jen jenerator@ozemail.com.au -*-This message is umop ap!sdn (Jenerator or Some1Else on IRC) -*- JenerEight on AIM -*- ICQ 11477318 Photos of David (8) and Megan (5) on the Stosser Family HomePage http//www.geocities.com/j_stosser Please sign our guestbook! -----Original Message----- From: Nicole Wolke [SMTP:NKWolke@T-ONLINE.DE] Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 9:07 PM To: LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: [LOISCLA-GENERAL-L] The floodgates have burst.... and my opinion spills forth. Hey, Lena, nice to see you here :-) > And finally (I'm sorry it's so long!), Erin. Erin, I > find myself in the reverse position; German is my > fourth language, and it does not qualify as 'easy'! I > mean, how many different words for 'the' do you really > *need*?!? Does it really matter if a chair is > masculin, feminine, or neutral? And what's with > 'mogen' (sorry, no umlauts) - what a twisted modal! > And what's with filling a sentence with every possible > detail before finally letting us know the verb?!? > German's no easier than English. It's probably no > harder, either . See, I'm German and I must say I bow to everyone who is able to learn my own language. I think it is very confusing and not at all logical! On the other hand English was very easy for me. But that's probably just as long as I'm not getting too deep into it. Every (foreign) language is starting to get difficult as soon as you're trying to know what you're doing. I think that's because a language is *not* about grammar rules, but that's what they teach you in school. It's so much more effective (and so much easier) to learn a language by hearing, reading and talking only. In my case it definitely works that way. As long as I continue babbling my English as it popps into my head, I'm doing fine, but the moment I start thinking... it's gone. As could be seen when I tried to say a few coherent words to Dean Cain in summer . Nicole (happily refusing to think since then) -- AKA CKgroupie on IRC/AIM NKWolke@t-online.de Are you always searching for news about Dean Cain? And you don't haven enough time to search? Here's your solution: Go to "The Dean Cain News Page" http://members.tripod.de/CKgroupie/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 18:16:26 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "Ann E. McBride" Subject: Re: "Who's on first?" or was that "That's" was: Re: help with a grammar quest... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/8/00 2:13:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, deimos1@EARTHLINK.NET writes: > This is one area where my computer and I are constantly fighting. My > grammar checker always tells me I can't use "whom", that it must me "that" > when referring to a police officer a fireman or a reporter, etc. > I always go with "whom", but I'm glad to know I was right after all. > > Maybe your grammar checker can't distinguish between essential and nonessential clauses. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:01:33 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Wendy Richards Subject: Re: The floodgates have burst.... and my opinion spills forth. Someone asked about "I'm good," and Ann's reply suggests that this is grammatically correct. Can someone tell me what is meant when someone says, "I'm good"? Do you mean 'I feel good'? Or 'I am well-behaved'? - which is what the sentence actually *means*? Wendy ---------- Wendy Richards wendy@kingsmeadowcr.freeserve.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:32:03 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "Ann E. McBride" Subject: Re: The floodgates have burst.... and my opinion spills forth. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/8/00 7:02:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, wendy@KINGSMEADOWCR.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: > Can someone tell me what is meant when someone > says, "I'm good"? Do you mean 'I feel good'? Or 'I am well-behaved'? - > which is what the sentence actually *means*? > > > It means "I feel good" or "things are going well for me." It is *not* formal English, even in the US. In formal English, "I'm good" would mean "I am a good person." But I can't imagine anyone ever saying it in that context. It's definitely a colloquial or slang expression. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 01:24:23 -0000 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Bethy Em Subject: Re: help with a grammar question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Kathy, I thought the pet peeve was *mixing* tenses, not using present tense itself. And as for papers, I don't know about correctness, but I *have* had teachers tell me to write essays in 'historical present' (which is basically using the present even though one is talking about the past). In fact, I got marked down once for using *past* tense, after he'd told us he preferred historical present but either would be okay! Personally, though, I prefer past. Bethy _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 01:38:36 -0000 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Bethy Em Subject: Combo reply (Quiz and Lena's 'flood') Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed "Quiz" answers (imho) 1. Clark Kent, who loved Lois Lane, was also Superman. 2. Lois, who was a reporter, loved Clark. 3. The Daily Planet, which was a great metropolitan newspaper, employed both of them. 4. Perry White, who was a huge Elvis fan, was like a father to both reporters. 5. The Superman suit that Clark wore was made by his mother. Response to Lena: >>Also, "Can I go to the washroom?" means the same thing as "May I go to the >>washroom?"<< If so, why do so many parents force their children to say >>'may'? I thought 'can' was connected to 'the ability to' and 'may' was >>(at least in this case) 'to be *allowed* to.' >>One who played the flute used to be called a 'floutist'. My dictionary >>now also reads 'flutist'...because that's what people insisted on >>saying!<< How would you pronounce it? I've seen it spelled the second >>way, but have been told to pronounce it to rhyme with 'plow'tist. >>Being Canadian, I also get caught in the cross-fire between American and >>Brittish language. I say 'colour', but I refer to Z as both 'zee' and >>'zed', and I say 'tomato' not 'tomahto'. I also use the word 'drove', not >>'drived', and 'dove', not 'dived'.<< Being American, I write 'colour' or >>'color' (the former because I like the way it looks and the latter because >>it's habit), and say 'zee' (except when I'm in a French/Spanish mood, in >>which case I say 'zed' or 'zeta' ), 'toe-may-toe,' drove, dove *and* >>dived! _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:41:10 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "Ann E. McBride" Subject: Re: Combo reply (Quiz and Lena's 'flood') MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/8/00 8:39:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, jextra42@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Also, "Can I go to the washroom?" means the same thing as "May I go to the > >>washroom?"<< If so, why do so many parents force their children to say > >>'may'? I thought 'can' was connected to 'the ability to' and 'may' was > >>(at least in this case) 'to be *allowed* to.' > > Absolutely correct. "Can I" means "do I have the physical capability to do this? while "may I?" is asking for permission. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 23:09:19 -0800 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Melisma Subject: Re: The floodgates have burst.... and my opinion spills forth. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have - in the Star Trek: New Frontier books. For a character that is both male and female. (Yeah, I know - wierd stuff :) The authors use 'hir' where normally you would find 'him' or 'her' and 's/he' for 'he' or 'she' - it was wierd at first, but then, in that context, you were able to get past it. If it was used for someone clearly only male or female, tho', I would find it extremely distracting, I'm sure... Melisma (under her Rock, finding this thread and its offshoots extremely fascinating) --- Original Message --- Jenny or Joe Stosser Wrote on Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:45:32 +1100 ------------------ I have come across someone using the term "hir" instead of "him or her". Anyone else ever seen this? Jen Visit my rock at http://www.intergate.ca/personal/melisma/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 23:42:48 -0800 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Melisma Subject: Re: help with a grammar question In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yeah, Bethy, that's what I originally meant. A story all in present tense, for me, needs to be that way for a reason, though - I tend to prefer past tense stories. But I'm in the middle of writing a present tense story, myself, mostly as an exercise, and also because it is told from one character's perspective as the events unfold (it's a story set within an ep, too) - and I'm noticing how hard writing present tense well and consistently can be. I find myself having to reread my work more than usual to make sure I'm not mixing tenses incorrectly.... Melisma (under her Rock, wondering how she got off on *that* tangent :) At 01:24 AM 09/12/2000 -0000, you wrote: >Kathy, > >I thought the pet peeve was *mixing* tenses, not using present tense itself. > And as for papers, I don't know about correctness, but I *have* had >teachers tell me to write essays in 'historical present' (which is basically >using the present even though one is talking about the past). In fact, I >got marked down once for using *past* tense, after he'd told us he preferred >historical present but either would be okay! Personally, though, I prefer >past. > >Bethy >___________________________________________________________________________ __________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > > Visit my rock at http://www.intergate.ca/personal/melisma/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 03:35:42 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Jill Melena Subject: Hottentottenstottertrottelmutterbeutelrattenlattengitterkastenattentater MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii (Sorry, I couldn't resist .) Thanks, Nicole, it's nice to be here. By the way, I like your logic; 'happily refusing to think' simplifies things nicely! Carol, the next time I'm getting frustrated with German, I'll remind myself that it's not trying to frustrate me, just keep things interesting with the 'suspense'! And Jen, that story was hilarious! As for how to pronounce 'floutist' and 'flutist', I've heard the first with the same vowel as 'trout', and the latter is simply 'flute-ist' without any change to to the pronunciation of 'flute'. >>Gerry said; "Politicians also use the passive as a ploy to remove responsibility." It's a pretty good ploy, and Spanish uses it quite commonly in every-day life. (I have no idea if that should be hyphenated, and I don't particularly care .) >>Ann said; "The reason that one says "you did well" but "I'm good" is that "did" is an intransitive verb and "am" is a linking verb." Ann, I'm so glad to hear that! Because answering "I'm well" just sounds so pretentious. :P >>"Tomahto is not unique to the UK. All of my relatives in Baltimore say tomahto too." You're right; they say it in Australia, too. (A friend of mine there even wrote to me that I have to come back - he misses how I say 'tomato'. Awwww. ) >>"Well, "drived" is not a word, so I am glad you don't use it. "Dove" is the less formal past tense of "to dive." "Dived" is the formal form. At one time, "dove" was not acceptable in formal speech or writing, but that has been changing in the US over the last 15 years or so." If 'drived' is not a word, *why* does it keep showing up in the American books I read?!? I hadn't heard of the level of formality distinguishing 'dove' and 'dived'; that's interesting. Also that 'dove' *is* used in the States, because the books I read always used 'dived'. In any case, according to my Linguistics prof., 'drove' and 'dived' are the historically correct past tenses. But since they're so similar, we actually made a regular verb *irregular* and created 'dove'. Maybe so they would rhyme? ;) >>Bethy said; "Also, "Can I go to the washroom?" means the same thing as "May I go to the washroom?"<< If so, why do so many parents force their children to say 'may'? I thought 'can' was connected to 'the ability to' and 'may' was (at least in this case) 'to be *allowed* to.'" Following grammar books, 'can' *is* supposed to be ability, and 'may' permission, but that's not how it's *used* (not in this context). And grammar books can't make it so if people refuse to follow them! Really, how we phrase things creates grammar, not the other way around. I mean, no one sat down and wrote out a bunch of rules, then said "This is how we're going to speak." Rather, people just worked things out on their own, learned how to speak *without* said books, then formalized the rules in order to clarify. Which works out great if the grammar books can keep up with the language! In this particular case, I would hazard a guess that 'may' is becoming the more polite of the two modals, while they can both be used to ask for permission, and 'can' also retains the other meaning. In forty years this could be quite different - in fact, 'ought' might be a full modal by then (it's kind of stuck between verb and modal right now), or it might veer off in another direction. I'd like to add a qualifier here that despite my firm statement that language is continually changing and is defined by how it's spoken, that doesn't mean that *anything* you say is grammatical. It's only grammatical if a population (read; group of people) starts to say it. Then you get to play with dialects! This was a slight problem on my mid-year Syntax test when the prof wanted us to explain exactly why (according to Chomsky's minimalist approach to English syntax, which has a surprisingly large textbook for all it's 'minimalism' ) certain sentences were ungrammatical. Because one of the sentences, to me, was perfectly grammatical, my mental lexical entry for what type of word was used being different from hers. Fortunately for me, others in the class agreed . My point is that there are still plenty of things which are quite definitely ungrammatical, since otherwise it would be quite hypocritical of me to point them out! As it is now, I'm still unwilling to accept "You did good" (and most definitely "You done good"), and I continually correct tv sitcoms for using them. But I just don't think they're listening . -Lena _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 20:00:39 +1100 Reply-To: "jenerator@ozemail.com.au" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Jenny or Joe Stosser Subject: Re: Hottentottenstottertrottelmutterbeutelrattenlattengitterkastenattentater MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Jill Melena [SMTP:melenajill@YAHOO.CA] Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 7:36 PM To: LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU Subject: [LOISCLA-GENERAL-L] Hottentottenstottertrottelmutterbeutelrattenlattengitterkastenattentater (Sorry, I couldn't resist .) And Jen, that story was hilarious! Glad you enjoyed it! As for how to pronounce 'floutist' and 'flutist', I've heard the first with the same vowel as 'trout', and the latter is simply 'flute-ist' without any change to to the pronunciation of 'flute'. I've never heard of "floutist" - we say (and my dictionary concurs) that a person who plays a flute is flautist. The "au" in this word rhymes with the "oo" in "floor", or the "aw" in "awwwww". >>"Tomahto is not unique to the UK. All of my relatives in Baltimore say tomahto too." You're right; they say it in Australia, too. (A friend of mine there even wrote to me that I have to come back - he misses how I say 'tomato'. Awwww. ) You have a friend here? I mean, apart from me? >>"Well, "drived" is not a word, so I am glad you don't use it. "Dove" is the less formal past tense of "to dive." "Dived" is the formal form. At one time, "dove" was not acceptable in formal speech or writing, but that has been changing in the US over the last 15 years or so." If 'drived' is not a word, *why* does it keep showing up in the American books I read?!? I hadn't heard of the level of formality distinguishing 'dove' and 'dived'; that's interesting. Also that 'dove' *is* used in the States, because the books I read always used 'dived'. In any case, according to my Linguistics prof., 'drove' and 'dived' are the historically correct past tenses. But since they're so similar, we actually made a regular verb *irregular* and created 'dove'. Maybe so they would rhyme? ;) And then you could get into a discussion on the verb "to hang" - and the past tense of the verb as in "the washing was hung on the line to dry, but the murderer was hanged till he was dead." Oh, and one other thing: if the plural of mouse is mice (not computer ones though, I've heard that word pluralised as mouses), then why is the plural of house not hice? I'm told that the plural of spouse is spice, but only ever having had one, I couldn't swear to the veracity of that. _____________________________________________ jenerator@ozemail.com.au -*-This message is umop ap!sdn (Jenerator or Some1Else on IRC) -*- JenerEight on AIM -*- ICQ 11477318 Photos of David (8) and Megan (5) on the Stosser Family HomePage http//www.geocities.com/j_stosser Please sign our guestbook! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:14:35 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "C.C. Malo" Subject: Thanks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All these comments are very helpful. You've given me the answers to my questions as well as a few extra things I didn't know before. Wonderful. :) Carol ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:06:23 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Pam Jernigan Organization: http://www.geocities.com/~chiefpam/ Subject: Re: The floodgates have burst.... and my opinion spills forth. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have - in the Star Trek: New Frontier books. For a character > that is both male and female. (Yeah, I know - wierd stuff :) > The authors use 'hir' where normally you would find 'him' or > 'her' and 's/he' for 'he' or 'she' - it was wierd at first, but > then, in that context, you were able to get past it. It still seems weird to me :) Although I can see the need, in the circumstance. In my favorite fictional universe, there are a few genetic hermaphrodites around (with both male & female characteristics), and the preferred pronoun for them there is "it". Which also seems weird, although the author usually finessed it where she could, by referring to the character by it's name... Not that this has anything to do with anything :) -- Pam Jernigan / ChiefPam / jernigan@bellsouth.net http://www.geocities.com/~chiefpam http://personal.rdu.bellsouth.net/~jernigan/ "I am still confident of this: I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord." --Psalm 27:13-14 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:20:14 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: No Name Available Subject: Re: The floodgates have burst.... and my opinion spills forth. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/09/2000 9:07:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, jernigan@BELLSOUTH.NET writes: << In my favorite fictional universe, there are a few genetic hermaphrodites around (with both male & female characteristics), and the preferred pronoun for them there is "it". Which also seems weird, although the author usually finessed it where she could, by referring to the character by it's name... >> Oh, you like the Ursula LeGuin's The Left Hand of Darkness, eh? :) --Laurie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:37:46 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "Ann E. McBride" Subject: Re: Hottentottenstottertrottelmutterbeutelrattenlattengitterkastenattentater MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/9/00 3:36:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, melenajill@YAHOO.CA writes: > If 'drived' is not a word, *why* does it keep showing > up in the American books I read?!? That is a very interesting question. I have *never* seen "drived" outside of the writing of elementary students. What kind of American books have you seen it in? > the level of formality distinguishing 'dove' and > 'dived'; that's interesting. Also that 'dove' *is* used in the States, > because the books I read always used 'dived'. > As I said, you wouldn't expect to see "dove" in a book, because it is the less formal form. > In any case, according to my Linguistics prof., 'drove' and 'dived' are the > historically correct past tenses. But since they're so similar, we actually > made a regular verb *irregular* and created 'dove'. > Maybe so they would rhyme? ;) > Not so they would rhyme, but because of a linguistic phenomenon called "over-correction." Children, when learning to speak, tend to apply each rule of grammar that they have internalized to every situation they encounter at first. For example, small children will say "He camed." Apparently, with "dove," adults did it too. > >>Bethy said; "Also, "Can I go to the washroom?" means > the same thing as "May I go to the washroom?"<< If so, why do so many > parents > force their children to say 'may'? I thought 'can' was connected to 'the > ability to' and 'may' was (at least in this case) 'to be *allowed* to.'" > > Following grammar books, 'can' *is* supposed to be > ability, and 'may' permission, but that's not how it's > *used* (not in this context). And grammar books can't > make it so if people refuse to follow them! Really, > how we phrase things creates grammar, not the other > way around. I mean, no one sat down and wrote out a > bunch of rules, then said "This is how we're going to > speak." Rather, people just worked things out on > their own, learned how to speak *without* said books, > then formalized the rules in order to clarify. Which > works out great if the grammar books can keep up with > the language! > > In this particular case, I would hazard a guess that > 'may' is becoming the more polite of the two modals, > while they can both be used to ask for permission, and > 'can' also retains the other meaning. In forty years > this could be quite different - in fact, 'ought' might > be a full modal by then (it's kind of stuck between > verb and modal right now), or it might veer off in > another direction. > > I'd like to add a qualifier here that despite my firm > statement that language is continually changing and is > defined by how it's spoken, that doesn't mean that > *anything* you say is grammatical. It's only > grammatical if a population (read; group of people) > starts to say it. Then you get to play with dialects! > This was a slight problem on my mid-year Syntax test > when the prof wanted us to explain exactly why > (according to Chomsky's minimalist approach to English > syntax, which has a surprisingly large textbook for > all it's 'minimalism' ) certain sentences were > ungrammatical. Because one of the sentences, to me, > was perfectly grammatical, my mental lexical entry for > what type of word was used being different from hers. > Fortunately for me, others in the class agreed . > > My point is that there are still plenty of things > which are quite definitely ungrammatical, since > otherwise it would be quite hypocritical of me to > point them out! As it is now, I'm still unwilling to > accept "You did good" (and most definitely "You done > good"), and I continually correct tv sitcoms for using > them. But I just don't think they're listening . > > As Lena says, languages are continually evolving; and American English is perhaps the language that evolves the most rapidly. French and Spanish evolve much more slowly, due in large part to the existence of the French Academy and the Spanish Academy. (For all you non-linguists out there, these are associations of primarily writers that have been chosen to guard the purity of the languages. They rule on what is acceptable or not in both vocabulary and usage.) I'm not sure if there is an equivalent body in Germany. Nicole? Natasha? is there? Lest we forget, the only reason that Americans spell the way they do is that Noah Webster spelled that way and put it in his dictionary. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:59:02 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "Ann E. McBride" Subject: Grammar quiz answers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/7/00 10:41:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, Aerm1@AOL.COM writes: > Pop quiz: Choose which relative pronoun to use in the following sentences > and decide if you need commas. Retype the sentence using the correct > relative pronoun and adding any necessary commas. > > Clark Kent,who loved Lois Lane, was also Superman. > 2. Lois, who was a reporter, loved Clark. > > 3. The Daily Planet, which was a great metropolitan newspaper, employed > both of them. > > 4. Perry White, who was a huge Elvis fan, was like a father to both > reporters. > > 5. The Superman suit that Clark wore was made by his mother. > > I'm impressed! Everyone who took the quiz got them all right. Jude, Helene, and Bethy were all five for five. Ann ( sending cyber A+ stickers to all) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 10:22:05 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Pam Jernigan Organization: http://www.geocities.com/~chiefpam/ Subject: Re: The floodgates have burst.... and my opinion spills forth. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do I? Can't remember ... I was actually thinking of the Vorkosigan series by Lois McMaster Bujold :) But I suppose it's not a unique situation. No Name Available wrote: > > In a message dated 12/09/2000 9:07:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jernigan@BELLSOUTH.NET writes: > > << In my favorite fictional universe, there are a few > genetic hermaphrodites around (with both male & female characteristics), > and the preferred pronoun for them there is "it". Which also seems > weird, although the author usually finessed it where she could, by > referring to the character by it's name... >> > > Oh, you like the Ursula LeGuin's The Left Hand of Darkness, eh? :) > > --Laurie -- Pam Jernigan / ChiefPam / jernigan@bellsouth.net http://www.geocities.com/~chiefpam http://personal.rdu.bellsouth.net/~jernigan/ "I am still confident of this: I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord." --Psalm 27:13-14 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 12:28:18 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Natascha Kortum Subject: Re: Hottentottenstottertrottelmutterbeutelrattenlattengitterkastenattentater Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html
>As Lena says, languages are continually evolving; and American English is perhaps the language that evolves the most rapidly. French and Spanish evolve much more slowly, due in large part to the existence of the French Academy and the Spanish Academy. (For all you non-linguists out there, these are associations of primarily writers that have been chosen to guard the purity of the languages. They rule on what is acceptable or not in both vocabulary and usage.) I'm not sure if there is an equivalent body in Germany. Nicole? Natasha? is there?
 
I might be the wrong person to ask. <g> But I have never heard of an institutions whose goal is to guard the German language. (I did learn about the French Academy though.) To the contrary, the government just passed a Spelling and Grammar Reform a few years ago in Germany. I wasn't there at that time and I did not have to learn the new and supposedly easier rules of spelling and grammar. To be honest, I think it is quite a waste. However, many people thought that German was too difficult to learn. And I agree.  It can be tough but millions of people learned it before and all of a sudden,w hat we learned is no konger right? Oh please! I for one am not going to learn the new rules. And apparently I am not the only one. Parents went to court  because they didn't want their children to learn the new "language." In some of Germany's federal states, there were injunctions at some point to stop the new reform.
I don't know what the status is right now. For a while teachers has tot each their students both ways of spelling and the new and old grammar. Can it get any weirder? <g>
 
Natascha

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========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:33:39 -0700 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Debby Subject: Re: help with a grammar question In-Reply-To: <6.ef9a3f3.2760dc9b@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:29 AM 12/07/2000 -0500, you wrote: >I'm in the midst of editing a fic and I keep running into this same issue. >I would really appreciate some help. > >Here's an example (not from the story, btw). Which should be used in the >blank -- may or might? I thought I understood this but now I'm beginning to >wonder. > >Although her intentions ____ appear nefarious, he knew she was a genuine >red-letter saint. > >May or might? and why?? > >Carol I'd advise: "Although her intentions appeared nefarious, he knew she was a genuine red-letter saint." Shorter, easier, to the point, though your reader may wonder what "red-letter" is, other than the S on Supe's chest. I'd use "might" if you were quoting someone-- "Although her intentions might appear nefarious to the common man, Nigel knew she was a genuine red-letter saint, so he gave her an appointment to see me. She sounds..." Lex paused to light an expensive Cuban cigar, inhaled smoothly and exhaled appreciatively, "...like some I can easily warp to my own ends." Debby huitziln@cais.net ____________________________________________ Personally, I have no control over my mind. My mind is like a classroom of 5-year-olds with guns and liquor. --Duncan North ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 21:49:54 +0100 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Kaethel Subject: Re: Hottentottenstottertrottelmutterbeutelrattenlattengitterkastenattentater MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey guys! Natascha wrote: >>>To the contrary, the government just passed a Spelling and Grammar Reform a few years ago in Germany. I wasn't there at that time and I did not have to learn the new and supposedly easier rules of spelling and grammar. To be honest, I think it is quite a waste.<<< They tried to make the same reform over here a few years ago, but of course everyone screamed betrayal so it didn't work (fortunately, imho). Most of the words involved in this reform had a Latin or Greek origin, and changing their spelling not only would have made the language poorer, but would also have been a nonsense (like changing 'photographie' to 'fotografie'). Ann, you said that French tended to evolve more slowly than English because of the French Academy, and I think it's very true. Even if I agreed with them when it came to the spelling reform, I think they tend to make the language too static. There's this current (and paranoid, imho) opinion that English is 'invading' French. From this opinion came lots of weird invention to replace English words with French equivalents (like 'courriel' and for 'email' - now more and more taken over by 'emel', which is even more of a nonsense, since it's just 'email' with a French pronounciation). And then you have purists who don't even want new words at all, whether they come from another language or have been invented! Anyway, the thing is, I think the French Academy can be an element to prevent the language from following its natural evolution, sometimes. Personally, I don't mind English words (or words from any language) appearing in French, on the contrary, because I think it *enriches* it. What most of these academicians don't see is that languages influence each other and enrich each other all the time, thanks to exchanges. Hence my continuing to use 'email' for 'courriel', 'walkman' for 'baladeur', 'weekend' for 'fin de semaine', 'CD' for 'disque compact' and so on :) Been off on a tangent, sorry . Helene :) (who thinks that languages would be very poor if they stopped exchanging words) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 14:27:43 -0800 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Anne Smith Subject: Message Board Index Update through December 8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi FoLCs! This is our 20th update! And we now have new email addy to go along with it! Check out http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Meteor/7378/lnc.html for stories posted to Zoom's message board through December 8. New part(s) posted: FAUX PAS WENDY RICHARDS HEARTS AND DIAMONDS SHAYNET (AKA SHAYNE TERRY) LES SIX BLAISEPASCAL LONG, STRANGE TRIP THIRTYSOMETHING MY FIRST FIC PINTOFOLC STRANGERS II RAGGIEMOM (AKA MISSYG) Completed stories this week: A LOVE WELL WORTH THE WAIT TRACEYLYNN ARE YOU LONESOME TONIGHT... (PLUS TANK ENDING) LABRAT New stories this week: FLIGHT BUMPKIN TIME ELAPSED HARMONY Added to the Archive this week: Fear of Discovery III: Coming Home by Yvonne Connell Just Another Undercover Assignment by Wendy Richards Enjoy! Dawn and The Index Crew :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 14:48:47 -0800 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Judith Williams Subject: Dive, drive, give MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isn't English logical and fun! But that German stuff was hysterical. I sent it to my German speaking son who promptly passed it on to some German friends. Someone wrote (Please forgive me. I've lost track) >In any case, according to my Linguistics prof., 'drove' and 'dived' are the historically correct past tenses. But since they're so similar, we actually made a regular verb *irregular* and created 'dove'. ----I'm beginning to feel more and more historical. When I was a school girl learning grammar, the correct forms in the grammar books were 'dove' and 'drove'. When I was teaching grammar an alternate form began to show up: the past tense could be either 'dove' or 'dived'. I have *never* seen or heard 'drived' except by the untutored. (Okay, that's pretentious, but kind. Would you prefer 'ignorant'?) And there were always those who, following the examples of 'drive, drove driven', and 'give, gave, given', wanted to say, "She has diven into the pool." Personally, I prefer 'dove' because it sounds lovely and seems to describe a graceful act as opposed to 'dived' which is more suited to a noisy, splashy entry into the water. :) Jude ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:46:23 -0700 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Debby Subject: Re: another grammar question In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:57 AM 12/08/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Okay, after the past couple days' grammar dicussions, my mind is reeling , >and I can't decide something. > >Is 'who's' a correct contraction for 'who has'? > >Wow, a 4th grader should know that, but my mind refuses to make things easy >this morning. "Who's got the Kryptonite?" Luthor asked, a mean look crossing his face. "Nigel's the one who's got it!" the cringing lacky, soon to be a late cringing lacky, whined. >Erin :) Debby huitziln@cais.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 02:30:07 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Jill Melena Subject: Re: Hottentottenstottertrottelmutterbeutelrattenlattengitterkastenattentater MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>Jen asked; "You have a friend here? I mean, apart from me?" Yes, I stayed with a friend in Perth for five weeks this last summer... and somehow came home hooked on L&C. Could have had something to do with the fact that she had the whole series on tape, I suppose. >>Ann said; "What kind of American books have you seen it (drived) in?" Romance novels. To be fair, there may have been times when 'drove' was used, because I wouldn't have noticed. But 'drived' irritates me, and I've seen it pop up every once in a while. Maybe the books just have bad editors (though a spell-check should catch that if it's truly 'wrong'). >>"Not so they would rhyme, but because of a linguistic phenomenon called "over-correction." Children, when learning to speak, tend to apply each rule of grammar that they have internalized to every situation they encounter at first. For example, small children will say "He camed." Apparently, with "dove," adults did it too." Though I'm not going to debate that children may say "He camed", wouldn't a child following this process be more likely to say "He comed"? This is also a process that takes place during children's acquisition of language, and they later correct it when they learn their irregulars. So "He comed" is a *mistake*, and doesn't become part of adult language. (Unless you change the spelling slightly... oh, what an awful example, Ann!) Also, there's a difference between applying a common rule to an irregular (strong) verb and creating an exception from a regular verb. Hypercorrection should overgeneralize a rule, such as 'past tense is created with the addition of -ed', so it would make sense for a strong verb to be regularized, 'drove' becoming 'drived', but not for a regular past such as 'dived' to become 'dove'. I don't know what did cause the switch, but I'm about to complain because I also think that it sounds much smoother than 'dived'. -Lena _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 07:17:11 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "C.C. Malo" Subject: Fanfic Recommendation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's a wonderful variety of new fanfics on the archive this weekend -- nice to look forward to reading on a cold winter's night. Usually I don't like to recommend fics but I do want to say how very good Christy's Metanoia is -- it's one of those fics which goes beyond the story itself to become a touching exploration of a more universal theme. Carol ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 07:26:43 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "C.C. Malo" Subject: Re: help with a grammar question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Debby wrote: <> I had no idea it was *the* S when I wrote that sentence. I should have looked more closely and realized that she's Supergirl! Although... what if it's not a red letter but a scarlet letter instead? Now which one would be easier for Lex to warp? And which one would find it easier to warp Lex? Carol ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 08:18:59 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "Ann E. McBride" Subject: Re: help with a grammar question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/10/00 7:27:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ccmalo@AOL.COM writes: > Although her intentions appeared nefarious, he knew she was a genuine > red-letter saint." > Although Debbie's version of this sentence is grammatically correct and sounds good, it doesn't quite have the same meaning as it would with the use of the modal auxiliary (might have). When you say "Although her intentions appeared nefarious," you are stating a fact: her intentions did appear nefarious. When you say, "Although her intentions might have appeared nefarious," there is some question as to whether or not said intentions appeared nefarious. The difference in meaning changes the "mood" of the complete sentence and makes a difference in the reader's perception of the situation. So the author needs to decide what exactly he or she is trying to convey. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 05:27:02 -0800 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "Irene D." Subject: Fanfic Recommendation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'd like to echo Carol's recommendation of Metanioa by Christy Kubit. It's a beautiful story, rich with details and will tug at your heartstrings. I loved it and have reread it many times. Christy is very talented. And, for quite a different, yet equally wonderful read, I'd like to recommend Chris Carr's Love, Loyalty and Luthor: Learning Curves II. This is a tour de force written from the point of view of a villian with unique perspective and unique insight. It's beautifully done with touches of wry humour (even if there's not a WAFF in sight ) Finally, Tank's three Christmas vignettes range from wistful to fun. Looks like a great day to read fanfic! Irene ===== sirenegold@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 09:27:16 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "Ann E. McBride" Subject: Re: Hottentottenstottertrottelmutterbeutelrattenlattengitterkastenattentater MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/10/00 2:30:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, melenajill@YAHOO.CA writes: > Romance novels. To be fair, there may have been > times when 'drove' was used, because I wouldn't have > noticed. But 'drived' irritates me, and I've seen it > pop up every once in a while. Maybe the books just > have bad editors (though a spell-check should catch > that if it's truly 'wrong'). > Hmmm. I read romance novels too, but I have never seen "drived" in my life. And I'm sure I would have noticed it because it is *so* wrong. You are probably right about bad editors. I can't tell you how many times I have found errors in textbooks, which you would think would have good editors. > Though I'm not going to debate that children may say > "He camed", wouldn't a child following this process be > Actually, that was a typo on my part. I meant to write "comed." However, I have heard little kids say "he camed" as well. They do it in between "He comed" and "he came." Ann ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:55:26 -0000 Reply-To: Yvonne Connell Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Yvonne Connell Subject: Oh, no, not another grammar question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With advance apologies to Gerry for misquoting her to illustrate my = point, can any of you grammar experts out there explain to me why this = sentence construction is wrong: I don't think I'm an expert, grammar is the tool I use in my everyday = work. It drives me nuts every time I read this type of sentence, but I don't = know why. Of course, maybe I'm completely wrong, and it's a perfectly = valid way to construct a sentence, but either way, I *need* to know! = Personally, to correct it, I would replace the comma with a semi-colon, = or make it into two sentences, or put something like 'because' before = 'grammar'. Yvonne (yvonne@yconnell.fsnet.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:35:13 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Rachel Subject: Re: Oh, no, not another grammar question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Yvonne Connell To: Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 9:55 AM Subject: Oh, no, not another grammar question With advance apologies to Gerry for misquoting her to illustrate my point, can any of you grammar experts out there explain to me why this sentence construction is wrong: I don't think I'm an expert, grammar is the tool I use in my everyday work. I wouldn't call myself an expert, but the reason this sentence doesn't work goes back to the basics of grammar school (something I did pretty decently in). You have two separate sentences there. 'I' is the subject of the first one with 'do...think' being the verb; the second sentence's subject is 'grammar' while the verb is 'is'. They have to be separated by something or it's a run-on sentence. So, you're right in thinking there's something wrong there :) Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:08:03 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Wendy Richards Subject: Re: Oh, no, not another grammar question On Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:55:26 -0000, Yvonne Connell wrote: >With advance apologies to Gerry for misquoting her to illustrate my point, can any of you grammar experts out there explain to me why this sentence construction is wrong: > >I don't think I'm an expert, grammar is the tool I use in my everyday work. This, I understand, is what's called a 'comma splice'; a comma is used to connect two independent sentences or clauses, when they really need a full- stop or semi-colon, as you indicated, Yvonne. Or else they need a conjunction (if that's the correct term) - a word such as 'because' or 'since', which would render the comma correct pronunciation. Wendy ------------ Wendy Richards wendy@kingsmeadowcr.freeserve.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:22:28 -0000 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Adam Labotka Subject: Re: Oh, no, not another grammar question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Yes it's true, the change in subject requires some sort of, is it called a conjunction I'm not sure, connection. I think in the sentence indicated though, the use of the word but after the comma would be best ;). (we go from I do to grammar is and you can't do that with just a comma) >From: Yvonne Connell >Reply-To: Yvonne Connell >To: LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU >Subject: Oh, no, not another grammar question >Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:55:26 -0000 > >With advance apologies to Gerry for misquoting her to illustrate my point, >can any of you grammar experts out there explain to me why this sentence >construction is wrong: > >I don't think I'm an expert, grammar is the tool I use in my everyday work. > >It drives me nuts every time I read this type of sentence, but I don't know >why. Of course, maybe I'm completely wrong, and it's a perfectly valid way >to construct a sentence, but either way, I *need* to know! Personally, to >correct it, I would replace the comma with a semi-colon, or make it into >two sentences, or put something like 'because' before 'grammar'. > >Yvonne >(yvonne@yconnell.fsnet.co.uk) _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:15:35 +0200 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Hazel Subject: Re: "Who's on first?" or was that "That's" was: Re: help with a grammar quest... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Christy wrote: ><< > 5. The Superman suit that Clark wore was made by his mother. >> > >Of course, sentence 5 also has the problem of passive voice, so one could >rewrite it to avoid the "that" phrase altogether. (Clark's mother made the >Superman suit he wore.) Passive voice has become one of my new pet peeves, >having just finished grading a dozen papers laden with passive voice... Passive voice has been a pet peeve of mine for the last eight years. :) The first paragraph of my first book was written entirely in passive voice. "This one was sitting here, while that one was watching her..." My editor pointed this out and we changed it to, "This one sat her while that one watched her." Ever since then, I avoid passive voice like the plague. "Show, don't tell." Hazel, apologizing for her fetishes :) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:17:36 -0800 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Melisma Subject: Re: Oh, no, not another grammar question In-Reply-To: <00db01c062b9$51d8ac00$dab0883e@91bb00j> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It's what is called a run-on sentence, Yvonne - when the writer mashes together two complete sentences without any kind of punctuation. When I was teaching English, it and fragments (sentences without either a subject or a verb) were the two most common mistakes I had to correct. I *harped* on it, cause it's another of my pet peeves - and I think by the end of the year all my students, grades 7-11, knew better than to present me with either a run-on or a fragment, lol! Melisma (under her Rock, glad she's not teaching in a classroom any longer) At 02:55 PM 10/12/2000 -0000, you wrote: >With advance apologies to Gerry for misquoting her to illustrate my point, can any of you grammar experts out there explain to me why this sentence construction is wrong: > >I don't think I'm an expert, grammar is the tool I use in my everyday work. > >It drives me nuts every time I read this type of sentence, but I don't know why. Of course, maybe I'm completely wrong, and it's a perfectly valid way to construct a sentence, but either way, I *need* to know! Personally, to correct it, I would replace the comma with a semi-colon, or make it into two sentences, or put something like 'because' before 'grammar'. > >Yvonne >(yvonne@yconnell.fsnet.co.uk) > > Visit my rock at http://www.intergate.ca/personal/melisma/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:20:04 -0800 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Judith Williams Subject: Re: Oh, no, not another grammar question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, this is called a comma splice or a run-on sentence, and your solutions for it are correct ones. While using this incorrect punctuation gives a certain impetus to the reading of the line, it also frequently creates for the reader great difficulty in following the meaning of the sentence, especially if it is of the complex-compound-complex variety. One of my favorite L&C authors uses this run-on punctuation constantly. When I first read her work it drove me crazy, but she writes so well in every other way and is so creative that I've just learned to ignore it--not an easy task for me. Learning to write using a variety of sentence structures is another solution and makes for more interesting reading. :) Jude ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yvonne Connell" To: Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 6:55 AM Subject: Oh, no, not another grammar question With advance apologies to Gerry for misquoting her to illustrate my point, can any of you grammar experts out there explain to me why this sentence construction is wrong: I don't think I'm an expert, grammar is the tool I use in my everyday work. It drives me nuts every time I read this type of sentence, but I don't know why. Of course, maybe I'm completely wrong, and it's a perfectly valid way to construct a sentence, but either way, I *need* to know! Personally, to correct it, I would replace the comma with a semi-colon, or make it into two sentences, or put something like 'because' before 'grammar'. Yvonne (yvonne@yconnell.fsnet.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:04:44 -0000 Reply-To: Yvonne Connell Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Yvonne Connell Subject: Re: Oh, no, not another grammar question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all you grammar buffs for telling me why the sentence was wrong. It's driven me mad for years, but I've never been able to explain coherently to anyone precisely why it was wrong. Now I can spout comma splices and missing conjunctions until their eyes glaze over . What frustrates me is that it's an extremely common mistake in all forms of writing - I see it all the time in my work colleagues' writing, and in published work of all sorts, from textbooks and manuals to journalists' articles and fiction. Now, in fiction, I can live with it, because as Jude says, one tends to break the rules for effect - I do it myself all the time. But (and there's a rule broken, I believe ;) ) I really, really wish people would see the error of their ways everywhere else! Yvonne (yvonne@yconnell.fsnet.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:32:57 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: No Name Available Subject: Re: Fanfic Recommendation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carol and Irene, thank you for your kind recommendations of my story. Thanks= =20 for saying so publicly, and I'm glad you both enjoyed the story. I must also= =20 point out that both Carol and Irene helped in the completion of the story,=20 Irene as a beta reader and Carol as its archive editor. So, really, they and= =20 everyone else who beta read and edited for me also deserve credit and thanks= =20 :) -Christy attalanta@aol.com << There's a wonderful variety of new fanfics on the archive this weekend -- nice to look forward to reading on a cold winter's night.=A0=A0 Usually I do= n't like to=A0 recommend fics but I do want to say how very good Christy's Metan= oia is -- it's one of those fics which goes beyond the story itself to become a touching exploration of a more universal theme. >> > I'd like to echo Carol's recommendation of Metanioa by > Christy Kubit. It's a beautiful story, rich with > details and will tug at your heartstrings. I loved it > and have reread it many times. Christy is very > talented. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:56:30 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "C.C. Malo" Subject: Re: Fanfic Recommendation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christy, you're welcome. You've written such a beautiful story. Carol ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:47:02 -0700 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Debby Subject: Re: help with a grammar question In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:18 AM 12/10/2000 -0500, you wrote: [snip] >When you say "Although her intentions appeared nefarious," you are stating a >fact: her intentions did appear nefarious. When you say, "Although her >intentions might have appeared nefarious," there is some question as to >whether or not said intentions appeared nefarious. The difference in meaning >changes the "mood" of the complete sentence and makes a difference in the >reader's perception of the situation. So the author needs to decide what >exactly he or she is trying to convey. The difference I see is adding nebulous to nebulous. "appeared" alone (used in this context) means that something may or may not be fact (as in "appearances are deceiving"). To add "may" or "might" seems redundant to me. Also adding either may or might could trip up the reader's eye. >Ann Debby :) huitziln@cais.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:02:48 -0000 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Missy Gallant Subject: Bad Analogies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi All, I've been lurking on this list for quite some time now, not sure why but it just turned out that way. But I knew that sooner or later I'd break down and start putting my two-cents in. I found something that tickled my funny bone this morning and knew I had to share with this list. Here's hoping this doesn't make you cring too much...*and* wish that I had stayed in lurk mode :) ********** The Washington Post held a contest of the "worst analogies ever written in a high school essay". Listed below are some of the winners: He spoke with the wisdom that can only come from experience, like a guy who went blind because he looked at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes with a pinhole in it and now goes around the country speaking at high schools about the dangers of looking at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes with a pinhole in it. (Joseph Romm, Washington) The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a bowling ball wouldn't. (Russell Beland, Springfield) >From the attic came an unearthly howl. The whole scene had an eerie, surreal quality, like when you're on vacation in another city and "Jeopardy" comes on at 7 p.m. instead of 7:30. (Roy Ashley, Washington) Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever. (Unknown) He was as tall as a six-foot-three-inch tree. (Jack Bross, Chevy Chase) Long separated by cruel fate, the star-crossed lovers raced across the grassy field toward each other like two freight trains, one having left Cleveland at 6:36 p.m. traveling at 55 mph, the other from Topeka at 4:19 p.m. at a speed of 35 mph. (Jennifer Hart, Arlington) John and Mary had never met. They were like two hummingbirds who had also never met. (Russell Beland, Springfield) The thunder was ominous-sounding, much like the sound of a thin sheet of metal being shaken backstage during the storm scene in a play. (Barbara Fetherolf, Alexandria) The red brick wall was the color of a brick-red Crayola crayon. (unknown) ******* I'll return to lurking now.....:) Anyone have any more? Missy Gallant _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:30:55 -0700 Reply-To: erink@ida.net Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Erin Klingler Subject: Re: Bad Analogies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I found something that tickled my funny bone this morning and knew I had to >share with this list. Here's hoping this doesn't make you cring too >much...*and* wish that I had stayed in lurk mode :) ROTFL!!!! Thanks for posting this list, Missy. I loved it! :) Glad you came out of lurking to post it, and I hope you delurk more often. :) Erin :) __________________ erink@ida.net Visit my LNC/Kerth Website: www.ida.net/users/davek ***** "It's not the years that count, it's the moments...right now, as they happen." __________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:17:32 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Gerry Anklewicz Subject: Re: Oh, no, not another grammar question Comments: To: yvonne@yconnell.fsnet.co.uk In-Reply-To: <00db01c062b9$51d8ac00$dab0883e@91bb00j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit yvonne@yconnell.fsnet.co.uk,Internet writes: >With advance apologies to Gerry for misquoting her to illustrate my >point, can any of you grammar experts out there explain to me why this >sentence construction is wrong: > >I don't think I'm an expert, grammar is the tool I use in my everyday >work. > >It drives me nuts every time I read this type of sentence, but I don't >know why. Of course, maybe I'm completely wrong, and it's a perfectly >valid way to construct a sentence, but either way, I *need* to know! >Personally, to correct it, I would replace the comma with a semi-colon, >or make it into two sentences, or put something like 'because' before >'grammar'. > >Yvonne >(yvonne@yconnell.fsnet.co.uk) > >Personally Yvonne, I would also replace the comma with a semi-colon and I would probably make my students stand up and repeat 50 times, "It is illegal to separate two principle clauses with a comma." I would then make them stand up and shout, "Edit! Edit! Always edit your work!" Gerry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:40:31 -0800 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: StarKitty Subject: Re: Bad Analogies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ROTFL! That was great, Missy! Thanks for posting it! Tara ----- Original Message ----- From: "Missy Gallant" To: Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 09:02 Subject: Bad Analogies > Hi All, > > I've been lurking on this list for quite some time now, not sure why but it > just turned out that way. But I knew that sooner or later I'd break down > and start putting my two-cents in. > > I found something that tickled my funny bone this morning and knew I had to > share with this list. Here's hoping this doesn't make you cring too > much...*and* wish that I had stayed in lurk mode :) > > ********** > > The Washington Post held a contest of the "worst analogies ever written in a > high school essay". Listed below are some of the winners: > > He spoke with the wisdom that can only come from experience, like a guy who > went blind because he looked at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes > with a pinhole in it and now goes around the country speaking at high > schools about the dangers of looking at a solar eclipse without one of those > boxes with a pinhole in it. (Joseph Romm, Washington) > > The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a bowling > ball wouldn't. (Russell Beland, Springfield) > > From the attic came an unearthly howl. The whole scene had an eerie, surreal > quality, like when you're on vacation in another city and "Jeopardy" comes > on at 7 p.m. instead of 7:30. (Roy Ashley, Washington) > > Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever. (Unknown) > > He was as tall as a six-foot-three-inch tree. (Jack Bross, Chevy Chase) > > Long separated by cruel fate, the star-crossed lovers raced across the > grassy field toward each other like two freight trains, one having left > Cleveland at 6:36 p.m. traveling at 55 mph, the other from Topeka > at 4:19 p.m. at a speed of 35 mph. (Jennifer Hart, Arlington) > > John and Mary had never met. They were like two hummingbirds who had also > never met. (Russell Beland, Springfield) > > The thunder was ominous-sounding, much like the sound of a thin sheet > of metal being shaken backstage during the storm scene in a play. (Barbara > Fetherolf, Alexandria) > > The red brick wall was the color of a brick-red Crayola crayon. > (unknown) > > > ******* > > I'll return to lurking now.....:) Anyone have any more? > > Missy Gallant > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:22:06 -0600 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Frank Ward Subject: Re: Bad Analogies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Missy, These are great! The bowling ball example reminds me of the line in "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" where the huge yellow space ships are hanging in the air exactly the way that bricks don't. (No, that's not an exact quote. I don't have a copy here at work). Adams seems to be able to make this kind of analogy work for intentional comedy, but I haven't seen many others do it well. My favorite is the line about the flavor of a drink being "almost, but not quite, totally unlike tea". Regards, Frank (who is not enjoying the thought of commuting though the ice and cold in Kansas City, with thousands of people who drive as though they have never seen snow before) >From: Missy Gallant >Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" > >To: LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU >Subject: Bad Analogies >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:02:48 -0000 > >Hi All, > >I've been lurking on this list for quite some time now, not sure why but it >just turned out that way. But I knew that sooner or later I'd break down >and start putting my two-cents in. > >I found something that tickled my funny bone this morning and knew I had to >share with this list. Here's hoping this doesn't make you cring too >much...*and* wish that I had stayed in lurk mode :) > >********** > >The Washington Post held a contest of the "worst analogies ever written in >a >high school essay". Listed below are some of the winners: > >He spoke with the wisdom that can only come from experience, like a guy who >went blind because he looked at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes >with a pinhole in it and now goes around the country speaking at high >schools about the dangers of looking at a solar eclipse without one of >those >boxes with a pinhole in it. (Joseph Romm, Washington) > >The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a bowling >ball wouldn't. (Russell Beland, Springfield) > >From the attic came an unearthly howl. The whole scene had an eerie, >surreal >quality, like when you're on vacation in another city and "Jeopardy" comes >on at 7 p.m. instead of 7:30. (Roy Ashley, Washington) > >Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever. (Unknown) > >He was as tall as a six-foot-three-inch tree. (Jack Bross, Chevy Chase) > >Long separated by cruel fate, the star-crossed lovers raced across the >grassy field toward each other like two freight trains, one having left >Cleveland at 6:36 p.m. traveling at 55 mph, the other from Topeka >at 4:19 p.m. at a speed of 35 mph. (Jennifer Hart, Arlington) > >John and Mary had never met. They were like two hummingbirds who had also >never met. (Russell Beland, Springfield) > >The thunder was ominous-sounding, much like the sound of a thin sheet >of metal being shaken backstage during the storm scene in a play. (Barbara >Fetherolf, Alexandria) > >The red brick wall was the color of a brick-red Crayola crayon. >(unknown) > > >******* > >I'll return to lurking now.....:) Anyone have any more? > >Missy Gallant >_____________________________________________________________________________________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:40:27 -0000 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Adam Labotka Subject: Re: Bad Analogies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed These are so bad it's funny ;). _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:57:26 +0000 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Phillip Atcliffe Subject: Legal Latin question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Greetings, all. Can one (or more ) of our US legal eagles (or Latin scholars) help me? What is the Latin phrase used in American law to describe a plea of "no contest", i.e., when a defendant accepts that he/she/it/yx(? ) has no grounds to fight against a charge or suit for whatever reason? I need to know for a fic. Thanks in anticipation, Phil, wishing he could find the old JLA story that features the term... ------------------------------------------------------------ Gravity is a Downer... So let's go flying! -- so sayeth Phil Atcliffe (Phillip.Atcliffe@uwe.ac.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:11:02 +0000 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Phillip Atcliffe Subject: Re: Legal Latin question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sent in the question @ 0850. Had an answer by 0900! Are FoLCs good or what? Phil -------------------------------------------------------------- "If you let a smile be your umbrella... you'll get wet teeth!" -- a forgotten comedian, quoted by me: Phil Atcliffe (Phillip.Atcliffe@uwe.ac.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 07:19:22 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "Ann E. McBride" Subject: Re: Legal Latin question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/12/00 3:48:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, Phillip.Atcliffe@UWE.AC.UK writes: > Can one (or more ) of our US legal eagles (or Latin scholars) help > me? What is the Latin phrase used in American law to describe a plea of > "no contest", i.e., when a defendant accepts that he/she/it/yx(? ) > has no grounds to fight against a charge or suit for whatever reason? I > need to know for a fic. > > It's <> I believe, also known as "an Alford plea." Ann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:16:03 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Marnie Rowe Subject: NEW: Flight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I posted this to the mbs a while back in two parts, and got a favorable response and meant to post it here too but kept forgetting... oops. Well here goes nothing. Flight Clark ran at human speeds till he was out of sight from any prying eyes, feet drumming a fast tattoo on the beaten path of the campus. His eyes were burning with the unshed tears that he ruthlessly suppressed, he could not see where he was going but let instinct guide him, relying on the extra abilities that had he could not explain. His mouth worked around the bitter taste that lay in his mouth, it was strong enough to make him near gag. Finally he felt that he was in the dense underbrush of the ravine and had enough cover. He tensed and launched his body from the ground faster than any eye could track, be it human or electronic, the cautions that his parents had drilled into him were almost stronger than instinct. Or maybe it was that the cautions were born of instinct, the instinct to survive, the instinct to fit in, the instinct to be loved. Lana... oh Lana, why? How can you do this to me? The air streamed around his body as he pushed the speeds that he was capable of, faster and faster he went. His loose clothing boomed with the air that it was catching and tore, flapping behind him rent like his heart. The air became colder and colder, making the unshed tears in his eyes feel like molten lava and then like a dam breaking they began to fall, streaming down his face like the air streaming around his body. Clark let the fierce winds pull them from his eyes faster and faster, and then finally, he let himself cry. He had done what he knew was not a good idea, he had told Lana the *truth* about himself. The whole truth, and nothing but the truth. She had not taken it well, to say the least. What had he really expected? He knew that he was a freak, that was why he had to hide it, so that other people would not be scared of him and so that the government men would not take him away from his mother and father and lock him in and little room to study him. Nobody could sustain such extreme emotions for long and Clark was no exception to that rule, he calmed down and began to enjoy the flight. Of all the things that he could do this was the one thing that made it all bearable. The freedoms, the exhilaration, the joy of flight were something that he could not put into words. It was overwhelming the pure sensualism of the air caressing your body stroking you, the feeling of total control yet being at the mercy of the air currents and weather, it was all just breathtaking. Clark lay on his back and drifted for a while as he took stock of the wreckage that his clothes were in. He winced, his mother was going to pinch his ear and drag him to the sewing table and make him sew it he knew. She would not fix something that was something that he could have avoided. Clark rolled up the shirt and tied it round his waist, did a barrel roll and punched the air to give himself a heading as he gained some speed, peering down he saw that he was over China and made a quick stop to get his mother some spices that she was running low on. Back in the air he emptied his mind and set out to enjoy what the flight back home could bring to him. Clark closed his eyes and lay flat, feeling the way that the air divided around his body. The little sensations coming through at the slower speeds just as good as the bigger sensations at the higher speeds. At slower speeds he could feel how the wind that streamed around him played with his hair giving him a scalp massage. All at once, little fingers of wind teasing every strand of hair making the hair follicles change directions raising a tingling sensation that was echoed all over his body to a lesser extant, he had gone night flying a few times naked... the memory of those flights made him blush. Clark began to pick up speed, and broke the sound barrier with a sonic boom and felt a whoop of joy exit his lungs, he was going fast enough that the sound was far behind and faint even to his super ears. He angled his body and let the air pressure push him in different directions, filing how each slight adjustment made a difference at the different speeds in his mind. He did loop de loops and barrel rolls. Back flips and dives. Clark dove to the surface of the ocean and skimmed over the tips of the waves, feeling the froth tickling his belly and catching at the tips of his toes. Swooping back into the air, Clark made a loop and angled his body raising his arms back into a point above his head he punched into the waves breaking through between crests. Each time he broke through the skin of the water feeling like he was being born all over again. Tiring of the game he rose back into the air and flew straight and fast to dry himself. Then feeling drained from all the emotions he had experienced he turned and headed for home...knowing one very important thing, that when life gave you lemons you had better make yourself some lemonade. Chapter two: Clark touched down in the same grove of trees that he had taken off from in his earlier mental distress. He had made a quick detour to the farm to leave the spices with his mother and a note that he would call later. He had to call later because he realized that he had left the remnants of the shirt at the farm as well. Clark winced as he mentally saw how their curiosity and worry would grow all day. He decided that he had better make a point of going for a clandestine visit, to reassure them rather than sticking with the antiseptic phone lines. That brought Clark back to what he had to tell his parents. He had to tell them about letting Lana Lang in on the big family secret and why he had decided to do it. Lana was his girl friend; they had always been friends, but he had thought that there was even more. They had known each other since they were toddlers, becoming 'bestest' friends in elementary school and junior high and finally in their senior years at high school they began to date. At first they had grown slightly apart during their first year together at Kansas U., but then they came together again and everything seemed to click and they had grown closer. Closer than they had ever been at home in Smallville. The way that she would ask him to help her do things, physically touching him, tracing the muscles of his chest through his shirts, letting her hand glide down to his denim clad bottom when he would eagerly agree. Then there was the wicked glint of amusement in her green eyes when they would be doing something slightly naughty that she would cozen him into, making him feel closer to her, a co-conspirator of sorts. Some of the pranks were innocent enough on the surface, but on closer inspection they could really be hurtful. So Clark would alter things just enough till no one would be hurt. Thinking that Lana had not had a chance to think things totally through and that she did not really want anyone hurt. But the next day when the prank was discovered Lana would glare at Clark and avoid him for a while like he had made a mistake somehow. She always came back though, that was something that he had known, and this time he was not so certain that she would. They had moved into a house with some other students in their second year so that they might have some more privacy to themselves than the dorms allowed them. It had been fantastic, waking in the morning to be able to see Lana walking around in her nightwear had made him feel that they were living like a man and his wife. The idea had taken root in his already adoring mind and he decided to propose marriage to Lana, but he was not going to do that without telling her the whole truth about himself. A marriage was based on trust and truth and commitment; he had given her the commitment, and now he had to give her the truth and trust that she could keep the truth quiet. So Clark had quietly conferred with the rest of the house inhabitants and arranged for a night alone, with just him and Lana in the house. He had made sure that it was a day that she had a late class and prepared the house perfectly. The dining room table set with some fancy china that he had found in a nearby antique store; a set for two. complete with long stemmed glasses and candelabra. He had flowers strewn all over the house loose and in vases their delicate perfume wreathing around his head as he moved through the house making sure that everything was set up and he had made all her favorite things to eat. Cold cucumber soup with lemon pepper for a starter, smoked red salmon and roasted garlic baby potatoes and asparagus for the main course and then for dessert he had been greatly daring. He had picked things that you could nibble or feed to a lover, things that were a sensual explosion of taste and texture and aroma. Everything had been perfect, everything had fallen into place just the way that he had seen it in his mind. Lana had come home from her late class and stopped dead at the sight that greeted her. Clark had given her time to appreciate the sight and then emerged from the kitchen carrying the tureen that held the cucumber soup. He set it down on the table and made his way over to her and helped her take her jacket off and hung it up for her. He took her satchel of books and set it down on the bench by the front door and then escorted her to her chair. He pulled her chair out for her to sit and then pushed it in for her, the picture of a gallantry. He murmured into her ear only, "I hope that you are hungry darling." Lana was totally bemused and picked up the lone red rose that was lying across her plate and held it to her nose as she smiled slightly. Clark served her the cucumber soup and then he and they made light talk. It was the same with each course as they finished Clark would get up and serve the next. Then he brought out the dessert tray and suggested that it might be better appreciated in the living room. Clark had really gone all out with the décor in the living room, he was hoping that if he over stimulated her senses enough that it would not be as much of a shock to Lana to learn that he was a bona fide alien from outer space. The living room had been emptied of all its furniture except for the square coffee table and the walls swagged with yards and yards of satin. Pillows were strewn all over and the lighting was the soft romantic glow of oil lamps that flickered and danced. They had piled up some pillows and sat down and fed each other the tangy strawberries dipping them first in the warm chocolate sauce and then licking the drips off from where they fell, giggling at the sound effects that were produced when they did. Popping the whole grapes into each others mouths with fingers and tongues, even trying to toss from a distance for a bit but not having much luck. Then they nibbled on tiny squares of baklava and shortbread dipped bananas and kiwi into the chocolate sauce and fed that to each other as well. Finally they could not even think of another bite, lick or even crumb. A comfortable silence fell as they just cuddled for a while and let their digestive systems work. Then Clark tensed and Lana moved out of the cradle of his arms to look up at him. "What is it?" She asked. Clark looked deep into her eyes and Lana thought that she knew what was coming next and she started to panic, she loved Clark, really she did but she knew for a fact that she was not ready to marry anybody yet. But then he surprised her with what he said. "Lana, I want to tell you something, its something really important and I have wanted to tell you for a while now but before I do I have to know that you will never ever tell another soul what I am about to tell you." Lana blinked. That was certainly not what she had been expecting. She nodded her head slowly as she racked her brain for what this was about. Clark sat back and took off his glasses and put them on the table rubbing the bridge of his nose the way that so many people do who wear glasses and she remembered something. Right before Clark had started wearing glasses, she had been on the edge of the Kent property line and had seen Clark running blindly, literally blindly he had been covering his eyes with his arm and they were squeezed shut. She had been concerned and followed as he called for his dad. Jon Kent had come running out his face white when he heard the note of terror in his son's voice and asked him what was wrong. Clark's voice had dropped but he would only open his eyes after his father put a lead painted bucket in front of him with water in it. Lana had kept her eyes open after that and seen a number of small things that could only be described as odd but she liked Clark, she liked him a lot and so she pushed them to the back of her mind. Clark dropped his hand from the bridge of his nose and brought her back to the present. 'He was going to explain it all to me now' Lana thought, not sure if she really wanted to know. "Lana, I want you to know that you are my closest friend and that you are the first and only person that I have even considered telling this secret to. I love you, and I hope that you know that I would never do anything to hurt you. " Lana jumped again when he said that he loved her, she loved him too but say it aloud to him? Another thing that she did not think that she was ready for. And 'hurt her?' how would he hurt her? Why would he say that? Clark kept going, plowing through an obviously pre-prepared speech, telling her how his parents had found him in Schuster's field after seeing what they thought was a comet. How he had started to find that things stopped being able to hurt him at a very young age and how he started to get stronger and stronger and faster and faster, he told her of how he had first found out about each gift that he had. But none of it was really registering she was hearing it and remembering that much she could do. She was stuck on the first part, the spaceship part, Clark, her babyhood pal, was a creepy crawlie from outer space. He was a little green man, he was everything that she had been terrified of and never told anyone about. All those late night movies that Gramps had let her watch when he was too lazy to put her to bed. There really were other 'things' out there and Clark was one of them! Her face must have shown some of her inner turmoil because Clark was asking, "Lana? Are you ok? I promised that I would never hurt you and I meant every word. Lana?" He reached for her to draw her to him for a comforting hug like many they had shared over the years and she let out a little scream, jerking back away from him violently. Clark looked like she had kicked him where it hurt, but she was in the grip of a very powerful phobia and could not stop herself. "Don't touch me, don't you ever touch me again, whatever you are!" The poisonous words shuddered from her shaking frame and Clark moved away from her like he had been physically hit by each word. She regretted the words as soon as they were out of her mouth but still she could not do anything about it. The way was clear for her to run to her room and she took it breaking down on the way into shuddering sobs that did not let up. She got into her bed and wrapped herself in her quilt from home and rocked crying, vaguely in the background she heard the door open and close and then the sound of running footsteps and she knew that Clark had fled. Finally she fell asleep, still crying. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 04:40:02 -0700 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Debby Subject: Superman Portrayals Metropolis - DC Universe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/1640/SPmetropolisDC.html This site has a lot of material, I've just begun looking. The URL is to a directory of the city of Metropolis (at the bottom is a button to get you to the home page). It info from the comics but I don't think it's the new Brainaic metamorphacized [made up word] version. It might provide writers with some ideas :) Debby huitziln@cais.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:45:57 EST Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Annette Ciotola Subject: New Name! New Look! Comments: To: lcnfanfic@egroups.com, afolcslife@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since it's technically Friday in some parts of the world, I'm posting this=20 now. [G] Nfic Archive (and so much more!) Announcement The Nfic Archive has a *New* URL and a *New* Look. Over the last few weeks,=20 it's been hard work moving things from one site to the new site, but with a=20 wonderful group of volunteers, who were extremely generous with their time,=20 we pulled it off!=20 New to the site ... Just to name a few things: An over all search function. The new search allows you to search the whole=20 site, Nfic *and* PG fic =E2=80=A6 or anything else on the site! Trivia Anyone? Visit the trivia section and let everyone know how well you=20 know Lois and Clark. There's a section for the show and for Fanfic knowledge= .=20 You can even add your own questions to the database. Each time you take the=20 quiz, you'll get different questions! (This is still in production, but I=20 hope together we can help kick it off!) The revival of Annie Lansbury's Writer's Showcase, with Dawn Fields as the=20 first of the new interviews! Special thanks to Labrat, Kaethel, and Avia for= =20 all their hard work on helping get this off the ground again! New this week! New Authors added to the PG side of the archive =E2=80=A6 an alternate resou= rce for=20 the fanfic of Pam Jernigan and Chris Mulder. Also catch Labby's latest Nfic: Are You Lonesome Tonight? There is also a PG= =20 version available!! Did I forget anything? Oh, yeah =E2=80=A6=20 Visit us at: http://www.annesplace.net Note: It's very important to double check the .net part ;) There is a new=20 password for the nfic side, if you are already a part of the password=20 distribution list, it's already been sent out to you. If you're on the list,= =20 but didn't get it? Visit the list archives at:=20 http://www.egroups.com/group/nfic You will not be able to view the archives=20 unless you're a group member. ;) That's all for this week Anne ;) annesplace.net FDK on the new site is welcome!