From: "L-Soft list server at Indiana University (1.8d)" To: "ARTF@MemoryAlpha.nil" File: "LOISCLA-GENERAL-L LOG0009E" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:05:38 GMT Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Diyan Subject: Re: Kerth Category "Original Premise" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >>Should we be recognizing the best *story* which comes with its own plot >>(as opposed to using elements of a plot from the show), or do we want to >>recognize the most *original* premise anyone comes up with? Or am I >>splitting hairs again??<< Actually, Pam, this is a question I asked myself plenty when nominating and voting last spring. The answer I decided on was *most original* premise that was a good story, but I think most others decided on the *best story* that used an original premise >>>we tend now and again to get some *very* heavily-plotted B-plot fics >>>which aren't really therefore dramas<<< >>Drama does imply an A-plot<< and then there are people like me, who didn't even realise that "drama" was supposed to imply A-plot >>>My question is, instead ... is it worth our while to create a new >>>category, for stories that remain entirely within the show's canon?<<< >>Sure, why not? It encourages people to rewatch episodes in detail.<< >>>What on earth would we call it?<<< How about Best Lost Episode / In-betweenie? But, I don't think there are enough stories like this to merit a category. Nan's Daggar stories, Wendy's Ordinary Man, Zoom's 12:01... maybe I just need to be reminded of them, but I can't think of many others. -Dia zimri@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:33:33 -0400 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Pam Jernigan Organization: http://www.geocities.com/~chiefpam/ Subject: Re: Kerth Category "Original Premise" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for chiming in, Dia! :) > The answer I decided on was *most original* premise > that was a good story, but I think most others decided on the *best story* > that used an original premise Ooh, good way to phrase it, much more elegant than I managed... personally I think I favor voting for the best *story* not the best *premise*, since a great premise can be ruined by poor execution ... but then again, if the story were crap, I really don't think it would be widely nominated, so it wouldn't be a problem. Very much a judgement call. > and then there are people like me, who didn't even realise that "drama" was > supposed to imply A-plot And I'm sure you're not the only one ... which is one of the reasons to have discussions like this :) > How about Best Lost Episode / In-betweenie? I like it! > But, I don't think there are enough stories like this to merit a category. > Nan's Daggar stories, Wendy's Ordinary Man, Zoom's 12:01... maybe I just > need to be reminded of them, but I can't think of many others. Yeah, I think you're right... It's funny, really. In some other fandoms I've spent some time in, the *majority* of the stories are in-canon; anything that alters canon is called an "alt universe" and sometimes the authors thereof are looked down on, as being too lazy to fit their stories into the "accepted" universe... Gotta tell ya, I much prefer the way we do things here :) -- Pam Jernigan / ChiefPam / jernigan@bellsouth.net http://www.geocities.com/~chiefpam http://personal.rdu.bellsouth.net/~jernigan/ "I am still confident of this: I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord." --Psalm 27:13-14 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:52:48 EDT Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: No Name Available Subject: Re: Kerth Category "Original Premise" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/29/2000 11:06:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, zimri@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << do we want to >>recognize the most *original* premise anyone comes up with? >> It was Pam's (?) comment about the meaning of original that took me by surprise. Seems that most of us took it to mean the the most innovative, new, interesting premise rather than seeing 'original' as referring to the show's canon as the original or first premise. Funny, we have so many discussions here about words and meanings that we totally missed one we were using amongst ourselves! --Laurie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:54:12 EDT Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: No Name Available Subject: Re: New Story Home II Beginnings Part 17 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/27/2000 1:48:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, deimos1@EARTHLINK.NET writes: << To be continued, in the next story. >> Well, darn it Nan. How long do we have to wait? That was wonderful. :) --Laurie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:26:50 -0400 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Pam Jernigan Organization: http://www.geocities.com/~chiefpam/ Subject: Re: Kerth Category "Original Premise" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It was Pam's (?) comment about the meaning of original that took me by > surprise. Seems that most of us took it to mean the the most innovative, new, > interesting premise rather than seeing 'original' as referring to the show's > canon as the original or first premise. Funny, we have so many discussions > here about words and meanings that we totally missed one we were using > amongst ourselves! > Well, I had a feeling there were some differing opinions about this... I hope we're getting rid of the "in-canon" definition of the category, for various reasons... and you haven't even mentioned the *other* meaning of "original", which is simply that the author created her own plot (however hackneyed it may seem), instead of reworking a plot from the show. I confess, I'm concentrating on the A-plot aspect here... So I'm still wondering, should it be "BEST original a-plotted STORY" or "MOST ORIGINAL story IDEA in a decent story"?? -- Pam Jernigan / ChiefPam / jernigan@bellsouth.net http://www.geocities.com/~chiefpam http://personal.rdu.bellsouth.net/~jernigan/ "I am still confident of this: I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord." --Psalm 27:13-14 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:55:49 +0100 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Wendy Richards Subject: Re: Kerth Category "Original Premise" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pam wrote: > So I'm still wondering, should it be "BEST original a-plotted STORY" or > "MOST ORIGINAL story IDEA in a decent story"?? Oh, please, don't confine 'Original Premise' to A-plotted stories! Most of my favourite 'original' stories don't have an A-plot... /me whispers 'Tryst' (okay, there is an A-plot of sorts, but that's not the focus of the story). There is also Hazel's Certain Point of View, which I'd see as an Original Premise. I've always thought of Best Dramatic as suggesting A-plotted stories, and it was my impression, seeing the shortlisted stories from year to year, that others did too. Perhaps that could be made clear in the description? Wendy -------------------------- Wendy Richards w.m.richards@hrm.keele.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:35:05 -0400 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Pam Jernigan Organization: http://www.geocities.com/~chiefpam/ Subject: Re: Kerth Category "Original Premise" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Pam wrote: > > > So I'm still wondering, should it be "BEST original a-plotted STORY" or > > "MOST ORIGINAL story IDEA in a decent story"?? > > Oh, please, don't confine 'Original Premise' to A-plotted stories! Well, that's part of what we're trying to figure out, here :) (And it wasn't really my focus when I said that, so I wasn't paying attention to that, exactly. Still, now that you mention it... ) I kind of like the idea of recognizing people (like Shayne, in Dear Lois) who have gone to the trouble of actually constructing their own plots -- some of them amazingly complex. Writing coherent plots is a lot of work (well, for some of us anyway -- /me sticks her tongue out at Nan) and maybe we ought to recognize that, in a subset of Drama. But of course, OTOH, there are lots of great stories that don't have villains, as such -- still, they have a premise. Look at my "Blind Leading the Blind", for example. The villains were completely missing, but I still took the premise from an episode (thus making it an ep adapt, not an OP). By contrast, in "Just Another Undercover Assignment", you created your own (original) premise (also sans villains). So there's still a distinction. > /me whispers 'Tryst' > (okay, there is an A-plot of sorts, but that's not the focus of the story). Yeah, but writing the A-plot gave me the most trouble I suppose Tryst would have been just as "original" if I'd skipped the a-plot and just had L&C hang around and get to know each other for a while... but I don't think it would have worked as well, as a story. > There is also Hazel's Certain Point of View, which I'd see as an Original > Premise. Now, see, I disagree -- I think that's a straight-up episode adaptation ... I haven't been keeping up with it after the first part or two, but I don't even think she's altering the events of the episode, just retelling it from a different angle. Which doesn't necessarily diminish its "freshness" -- but should that quality be confined to only one category? :) I think the quality you admire in this should propel her towards "Best Ep Adapt", if anything. > I've always thought of Best Dramatic as suggesting A-plotted stories, and it > was my impression, seeing the shortlisted stories from year to year, that > others did too. Perhaps that could be made clear in the description? Certainly something to look at ... as I recall (and you can't trust my memory so maybe someone else could jump in here), I believe the description mentioned that a Drama "usually" included an A-plot ... that does seem to have been the trend in the category, anyway. -- Pam Jernigan / ChiefPam / jernigan@bellsouth.net http://www.geocities.com/~chiefpam http://personal.rdu.bellsouth.net/~jernigan/ "I am still confident of this: I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord." --Psalm 27:13-14 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 19:56:49 EDT Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "C.C. Malo" Subject: Re: Kerth Category "Original Premise" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Original is so difficult to define. But maybe it should be more than an episode adaptation or a different take on an episode. And sometimes, I feel we are recycling a lot of the A and B plots that appeared in fanfics in the first couple of years (I think Heartbeat is my all time favourite story :) I know I was surprised when a story of mine was nominated for original premise last year -- although I was very excited that it was nominated, I was surprised because it was based on a premise that arose out of the show (time travel from the future). There seems to have been small waves of a certain type of premise that ripple through fanfic and then a new trend develops. All those revelation stories, for example. (wrote one myself ) So, it's hard to come up with an original premise -- either it's strongly linked to an episode or an earlier fanfic(s) dealt with that premise. I'm hard put to think of a story that I've read in the last year that is an original *premise* (except Jeff's Lost and Found and Christy's Martha' Chronicles), although some have bits of insight into character or motivation that is orginal and so many are well written that I am in awe. Maybe we should abandon the idea of "original premise" and set up some new categories like "best development of secondary characters", "best soulmates fic", etc. Pam, are you in the process of revising categories or are you just speculating? & btw, is Tryst about to appear on the archive? -- I checked the ending (I know, cowardly, ) and ... Maybe it will change my mind about original premise. Carol ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:59:08 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Kathy Brown Subject: Re: Kerth Category "Original Premise" On Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:55:49 +0100, Wendy Richards < w.m.richards@HRM.KEELE.AC.UK> wrote: >I've always thought of Best Dramatic as suggesting A-plotted stories, and it >was my impression, seeing the shortlisted stories from year to year, that >others did too. Perhaps that could be made clear in the description? Actually, I've never seen Drama as just a-plot, and if you look at the nominees and winners in past years, I don't think others saw it this way either. In 1998, Chris Mulder's "Love Beyond All Measure" won the award, and I would call that mostly a b-plot story, though it certainly had L&C investigating Lex as well. In 1999, Yvonne's nominated "Fear of the Unknown" dealt with Clark having amnesia. And in 2000, Karen Ward's nominated "Nightmare on Hyperion Avenue" dealt with Lois being sexually assaulted. There may well have been an a-plot as well, but I don't think they were the main focus of the story. Rather, I've always seen "Best Drama" as a category for stories that deal with serious subject matters, whether they be a-plot * or* b-plot. Carol asked: >Pam, are you in the process of revising categories or are you just > speculating? I think we're always looking at the categories and tweaking anything that seems to require it. For example, if a year doesn't have many "episode adapts", maybe we wouldn't include that category. Or if a particular category was the target of a lot of discussion/questions last year (like Original Premise was -- Pam, Erin and I exchanged *many* emails on this exact subject last year, so I'm glad Pam is bringing it up here), we'll look at it to make sure we are meeting the needs of the voting/nominating readers. Look at the problem "Best Euphemisms" had in the first nKerths -- half the people took it at it's definition and nominated stories that used a lot of humorous double entendres, etc. But the other half of readers took it to mean "classic" stories in the gendre, and nominated on that premise. I've been interested to see the different opinions on the "Original Premise" category. If I remember correctly, we used it as the third leg in the "Alt World"/"Elseworld"/"Original Premise" breakdown. It was hard enough trying to decide how to figure out what was Alt World vs Elseworld, so "lost episode" type stories -- stories that used *our* L&C but put them in new situations -- was needed. (We also added the "New/Old Krypton" category to thin out the "Elseworld" category, which at least last year worked very well.) But we definitely discussed whether it was my above definition (our L&C in new situations) or whether it should be for "most creative treatment". We are always open to new/reworded category suggestions. We may or may not actually use them, but we definitely always discuss them. Kathy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 06:50:37 EDT Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: "C.C. Malo" Subject: Re: Kerth Category "Original Premise" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to have been so dense. When Kathy wrote that Original Premise meant <> I finally clued in. In that case, many of the stories I've read this year fit in that category. Time to become a lurker. Carol ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:21:05 -0400 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Pam Jernigan Organization: http://www.geocities.com/~chiefpam/ Subject: Re: Kerth Category "Original Premise" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, I've been thinking about this some more (Danger, danger, Will Robinson! ) and it seems like we've been talking about (at least) three different types of stories: 1) Stories that are completely in-canon for the show 2) Stories that have new plots but might change show's continuity (first season revelation stories, etc) and 3) Stories that are so original that they take you by surprise, no matter where the plots come from. So rather than trying to choose just one, I propose two new categories: "Best Lost Episode" -- A story with an engrossing, original a-plot and an engaging b-plot. Need not remain in series continuity, but should not be a reworking of a plot from the show. (think Recognition: Truth, where Carol wrote an intricate murder mystery, or Fear of Discovery, where Yvonne gave Tempus something new to do -- this'll cover both 1 and 2, above) and "Most Original Premise" -- A story with a fresh new look at familiar characters, or an unexpected twist to familiar situations. A story that surprised and delighted you. (this is what a lot of people thought "Best Original Premise" was, last year -- Wendy's Penfriend fits this perfectly, and now Hazel's CPOV fits, too.) Does this make sense to y'all?? Anyone want to tweak the definitions? :) Mind you, none of this is official unless and until Erin gives it her blessing, 'cause she da man (p.s. to Carol: I'm working on editing Tryst ... shall I send you a copy so you don't have to wait? I'm glad you peeked at the ending, that'll give you the courage to read the whole thing!) -- Pam Jernigan / ChiefPam / jernigan@bellsouth.net http://www.geocities.com/~chiefpam http://personal.rdu.bellsouth.net/~jernigan/ "I am still confident of this: I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord." --Psalm 27:13-14 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:20:49 -0500 Reply-To: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" Sender: "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic" From: Kathy Brown Subject: Re: Kerth Category "Original Premise" On Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:21:05 -0400, Pam Jernigan wrote: >"Best Lost Episode" -- A story with an engrossing, original a-plot and >an engaging b-plot. Need not remain in series continuity, but should >not be a reworking of a plot from the show. > >and > >"Most Original Premise" -- A story with a fresh new look at familiar >characters, or an unexpected twist to familiar situations. A story that >surprised and delighted you. I like it Pam, and I'll definitely be interested in the reaction and discussion on these. Another side benefit -- "Best Lost Episode" is a natural replacement for "Best S6 Episode" from last year. To avoid confusion by using the same category title from last year, though, maybe we could change "Most Original Premise" to "Most Innovative Idea"? This would prevent someone from assuming they knew what the category meant or looking at last year's nominees to determine the definition. If we are going to change the definition, we should also change what we call it. I also would like to see us start including definitions such as the above on the nomination forms/website and ballots. Once we figure out what they are supposed to be , I think we should put them up somewhere (on the Kerth site, most likely) where they can stay throughout the nomination/voting process, so readers can refer back to them if they get confused. Plus we can then all be working from a common starting point if we decide to revise the definitions. So I'm holding onto these definitions, and modifying them as needed. Other important categories to define include "Alt World" and "Elseworld", After all, couldn't all "elseworlds" stories just be considered an "alt universe"? The definition the Kerth committe (Pam, Erin and I) came up with last year was that "Alt Worlds" should either show the Alt World we saw on the show (Fear of Discovery, Mirror Cracked, Only You) *or* use our L&C as a vehicle to discover a new alternate universe (Life in a Different World, Big Boys Do Fly). "Elseworlds", on the other hand, would be reserved for stories with major changes from the L&C we saw on the show (Just Like That, Heartache Tonight, Alternate Beginnings, Congo, My Journal) or crossovers (Timeless). This seemed to work well last year. Of course, none of these definitions are perfect, and we probably will never be able to eliminate all confusion. Timeless could arguably be called a "Lost Episode", for example, since it ends where it began, with our L&C back in Metropolis, with no one else knowing anything had happened. Just Like That could have been considered an "Episode Adapt". But we do the best we can to clarify things ahead of time, to eliminate as much confusion as possible. :) Kathy