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Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:05:16 -0400
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From:         "Atcliffe, Phillip" <Phillip.Atcliffe@UWE.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Story Idea: Martha and Jonathan as new parents
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On Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:54:53 -0400 Sandra McDermin
<SMcDermi@NAS.EDU> wrote:

[Some stuff snipped]

> How did the Kents, who had never had children, suddenly
adjust to being instant parents. Remember they had no
warnings; made no financial or other preparations. Nada! <

Actually, they probably weren't as unprepared as all that.
They knew that they couldn't have children, which implies
that they'd been trying -- and that willingness to have
kids is at least half of the "battle". I can imagine their
situation as being not unlike that of Lois and Clark in the
baby arc during the 4th season, only further along: L&C
(well, Lois) weren't necessarily ready to have kids right
then and there, but they did want to know if it was
possible; I see the Kents as, since they probably didn't
expect to have problems that way, actively trying to have a
child.

Since I can't remember all the details of TF, I don't know
if J&M trying to adopt and being turned down repeatedly
(Strewth! The American adoption system must be totally
insane if the Kents -- either generation -- were turned
down!) was part of the series or just (just? <g>) in
fanfic, but that, too, could have been part of the process
of getting them ready for the little "miracle" that was
about to drop into their lives.

As for dealing with a baby... well, heck, they're
_farmers!_ I had an argument with a bloke at pre-natal
classes on this, but I still maintain that looking after
animals, pets or livestock, is good preparation for living
with a baby. There wasn't much difference, to my mind
(which was, I admit, rather clouded from lack of sleep),
between looking after a puppy with distemper at 3 a.m. and
doing what we called the "early shift" with either of my
sons as a baby. Jonathan and Martha are used to dealing
with animals; they could handle a baby (doing both at once,
however, could be stressful...)

Phil, remembering the early shift with some fondness --
_and_ the good friend that puppy grew to be...
------------------------------------------------------------
"I think... I think I am!     |       I think _I_ am:
 Therefore I am... I think?"  |        Phil Atcliffe
   -- The Moody Blues         | (Phillip.Atcliffe@uwe.ac.uk)
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Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:47:48 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         No Name Available <Larus2407@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Story Idea: Martha and Jonathan as new parents
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In a message dated 98-07-07 22:57:57 EDT, kubitc@KENYON.EDU writes:

<<  (These
 Martha stories are requiring a TON of research.) >>

Well, I guess you must be a youngster not to remember those years
first-hand.
<g>

--Laurie (who doesnt' really remember much of anything going on in the world
during her childhood anyway)
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Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:29:29 EDT
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From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Story Idea: Martha and Jonathan as new parents
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In a message dated 98-07-08 05:17:38 EDT, you write:

<< Actually, they probably weren't as unprepared as all that.
 They knew that they couldn't have children, which implies
 that they'd been trying -- and that willingness to have
 kids is at least half of the "battle". I can imagine their
 situation as being not unlike that of Lois and Clark in the
 baby arc during the 4th season, only further along: L&C
 (well, Lois) weren't necessarily ready to have kids right
 then and there, but they did want to know if it was
 possible; I see the Kents as, since they probably didn't
 expect to have problems that way, actively trying to have a
 child. >>

I agree with this.  Jon and Martha probably were like most couples who try
to
have children and are prepared to become parents, but it is at this point
where they find despite their efforts, no pregnancy, that they seek out a
medical reason for why they haven't been successful.  Martha might have even
gone through a nine month pregnancy and perhaps the baby was still born.  If
she had gone through a full term or nearly full, she and Jonathan may even
have purchased a lot of baby clothes, diapers, baby bed, maybe even fixed up
a
nursery.  What if Jonathan did a four year hitch in the Army like most guys
of
his generation?  Say he was stationed in Germany between '59 and '62 and
Martha was with him. In Germany and the UK of that era, Thalidomide was
prescribed as a tranquilizer and for morning sickness, but doctors didn't
know
the drug caused extreme birth defects, at least to the fetuses that lived
long
enough to be born.  Okay, maybe that scenario is a bit too tragic, but
Martha
could have come close to bringing a pregnancy to term, something went wrong,
and the end result might have rendered her sterile, or at least created a
stituation where a full term pregnancy was too dangerous or flatout
impossible.

Whatever happened, it was upsetting, and still painful by the time Lois and
Clark visited in Tempus Fugitive.  The instant Lois mentions a baby, Martha
looks at Jonathan, he puts a comforting hand over hers and gently says "Now
Martha..." as if it's something they've talked and talked about and he knows
where this may head and he certainly knows how much it hurts.  The real
tough
part of writing how Martha and Jonathan fared as parents will be addressing
how they *explained* a baby<g>  In the comics, Martha and Jonathan were
trying
to have a baby, and so when a freak blizzard struck isolating the farm folk
from the town folk until Spring, that's when Clark's spaceship landed, and
so
they merely said Clark was born during that blizzard.  Problem solved ;)  A
freak blizzard in  May would be a bit more difficult, but maybe a flood ..
hee
hee ;) In the movies, I think the baby was going to be explained as being
from
Martha's cousin, but sooner or later a school would want records.

>>>Since I can't remember all the details of TF, I don't know
if J&M trying to adopt and being turned down repeatedly
(Strewth! The American adoption system must be totally
insane if the Kents -- either generation -- were turned
down!) was part of the series or just (just? <g>) in
fanfic, but that, too, could have been part of the process
of getting them ready for the little "miracle" that was
about to drop into their lives.<<<<

I imagine Martha and Jonathan would be turned down for adoption if the
agency
felt that farming was too "iffy" a livelihood (living harvest to harvest)
and/or that a farm would be too remote from help in case of serious illness
or
emergencies.  I know those are dumb reasons to deny a child to great people
like the Kents, but this is America, it's all weird ;)  Even adopting an
animal from a shelter can be expensive and they have rules like a "fenced
yard" for dogs, and that's swell if you don't live out in the country like I
do, and a "yard" might be ten arcres of land<g>

>>>As for dealing with a baby... well, heck, they're
_farmers!_ I had an argument with a bloke at pre-natal
classes on this, but I still maintain that looking after
animals, pets or livestock, is good preparation for living
with a baby<<<

I agree, anyone who has even taken care of a sick pet, and had to give it
extra care knows what it's like to love and care for something fairly
helpless
and utterly dependant on you.  Just as Clark was *born* to be Superman, I
think the Kents were *born* to be great parents ;)

Zoomway@aol.com
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Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:21:02 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Story Idea: Martha and Jonathan as new parents
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>>[Some stuff snipped]<<

Good stuff.  Every word's a gem ; )

> How did the Kents, who had never had children, suddenly adjust to being
instant parents. Remember they had no warnings; made no financial or other
preparations. Nada! <

>>>Actually, they probably weren't as unprepared as all that. They knew
that they couldn't have children, which implies that they'd been trying --
and that willingness to have kids is at least half of the "battle". I can
imagine their situation as being not unlike that of Lois and Clark in the
baby arc during the 4th season, only further along: L&C (well, Lois)
weren't necessarily ready to have kids right  then and there, but they did
want to know if it was possible; I see the Kents as, since they probably
didn't expect to have problems that way, actively trying to have a
child.<<<

I agree that they had been trying at some point -- no one would dispute
that.  But, they weren't exactly newlyweds when Clark arrived.  I had
gotten the impression that their attempts at having children was something
in the past.  They investigated their lack of success and found they
couldn't have children.  Granted, under these circumstances they might have
had a few items -- a cradle, a highchair.  But, honestly, do you think they
had a stack of diapers all ready, bottles, baby food.  You don't exactly
buy these things and put them in a hope chest.  Besides that, I could see
Martha (perhaps feeling emotional pain over having said items in the house)
giving them to some needy young mother.  That's pretty Martha-like, I
think.

>>As for dealing with a baby... well, heck, they're _farmers!_ I had an
argument with a bloke at pre-natal classes on this, but I still maintain
that looking after animals, pets or livestock, is good preparation for
living with a baby. There wasn't much difference, to my mind (which was, I
admit, rather clouded from lack of sleep), between looking after a puppy
with distemper at 3 a.m. and
doing what we called the "early shift" with either of my sons as a baby.
Jonathan and Martha are used to dealing with animals; they could handle a
baby (doing both at once, however, could be stressful...)<<

Well, Phil, as much as I'd like to take your word for this -- I can't.
Even though you're a dad and I am no one's parent, I have taken care of
puppies and kitties.  And, I know the difference between baby humans and
baby animals.  Baby humans need *a tad more tending.*  (I can't speak for
farm animals.)  I would certainly go to work and leave a baby animal home
alone.  I wouldn't do the same with a human baby -- I hope.  Furthermore,
Martha and Jonathan are human beings with emotions, anxieties, and fears.
No matter how many animals they've taken care of, I'm sure they would be a
bit more on edge with a brand new (to them) "human" baby.  I'm sorry.  I
have two cats that I've raised from kitten-hood and I love them dearly, but
that doesn't mean I know diddley-squat about being a mother.  That's
somethin' you learn by doin' and Martha would have had to learn just like
the rest of us.

In any event, the point of my original post was not to debate this issue.
If you don't think any of the points I brought up would be issues then ...
fine.  I still think a nice story could be written from this premise -- so
I threw it out there.  In any case, stories are very individual and have an
internal logic created by the authors.  Even if you don't buy my premise,
that doesn't mean someone else couldn't write a good story based upon it
nor that you wouldn't enjoy reading it.  Stories, after all, should have
"conflict" and/or "issues" and IMO these are interesting "issues".

Sandy -- thrilled that she doesn't have to find a decent school in the
      District for her cats.
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Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:38:11 -0600
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         Debby Stark <debby@SWCP.COM>
Subject:      Re: "The Chicken and Egg Debate"
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At 11:49 PM 7/5/98 -0400, Zoomway  wrote:

>In a message dated 98-07-05 21:20:37 EDT, you write:
>
><< She was also being written by some guys who had orders to take the show
in
> a more action/Superman oriented direction. The 2nd half of season 2, IMO,
> was her strongest showing >>

>If you're saying the 2nd season writers wrote Lois better than 1rst
>season...

I have said in the past that Lois had matured nicely by the end of the 2nd
season. I have also said that the 2nd season was very bad for the character
of Clark Kent, that it was not his year.

>...DJL and her brother Dan
>wrote the 1rst season finale, and so it's not like we're talking "one-shot"
>writers here who didn't know the characters.

Why do you suppose they wrote them that way? Was it what they wanted to
write or did abc have any influence over the matter? Was the final product
what DJL&DL wanted to see on the screen? If this is how they wanted to
write the show, why do you suppose that abc/wb get rid of them anyhow? In
those two episodes, Lois was dumbed down and subdued, Clark was largely
abcent, Lex was killed off, romance between L&C faltered and almost
died--isn't this what abc wanted?

Unless what we saw on the screen wasn't what DJL & DL originally wrote. Who
knows? It doesn't make any sense to me. I wish I knew the story behind all
that.

>>>>>but I still like how, at least until BatP and
>HoL, she managed to bounce back from every insult and become a fuller, more
>interesting person in the process, despite sometimes mediocre script
>writing.<<<
>
>I agree, since the episodes weren't connected to each other 1rst season, it
>was easy for Lois to 'bounce back' as if nothing ever happened, because
well,
>it was almost as if nothing ever did<g>

I didn't say "as if nothing ever happened." You did.

I said: "she managed to bounce back from every insult and become a fuller,
more interesting person in the process." If you don't think so, fine with
me.

Also, I saw most of season one's episodes as fairly well connected with
each other, with reasonable and agreeble continuity.

>>>>
>Let's say the writers were ordered to write something to move the series in
>the new direction and no one paid any heed to what it did to Lois's
>character. <<<<
>
>I'd hate to think DJL of all people would have "paid no heed to what it
did to
>Lois's character"

I'd hate to think that as well, but I have no clues about what pressures
she was under, if any (note my questions above), when she wrote whatever
she and DL wrote of BatP and HoL. I know she did fine work before that, as
a writer but more so in running the show, so why suddenly the change?

>[snip] The issue for me is *why*? Why did Lois almost marry Lex?  [snip]

Okay, why do *you* think she did?

[snip a *gasp!* agreement on something]

>>>>I thought it was cute and I could relate immediately. <<<

>Believe me, I know most people thought the line was "cute" or funny, but
I'd
>hate to think Lois would be that stupid,

I sure don't think she was stupid.

>or maybe she thought that was the
>natural coloration of Kryptonian males, and when they molt, they have that
>hot, tight, black suit ;)

Since you hate to think she was stupid, why then *do* you think she said
the line?

I think she said it *not* because she thought it was impossible for the
suit to come off, but because she more than anyone else knew that Superman
was busy, maybe 24 hours a day, and invulnerable to boot. To think that he
might actually stop to do something so mundane as enjoying a shower was
assounding to her. Thus, "the suit comes off" indicates to me that she
found herself privy to something perhaps no one else in the world knew
about the hero: that there was someone real under the suit, someone who
actually did normal things like take showers. Her next question might have
been, "Does he sing in the shower?"

So the line wasn't only cute, it was sweet and a further indication to me
that she was uncovering clues to a multidimensional character. And, of
course, that she cared enough to want to do so, particularly combined with
her efforts throughout that episode.

>>>Typical Lois: a true hera without superpowers.<<<

>Uh huh, and as thick as a brick<g>

Oh, that's cute. I don't know if that comment is a nasty jab at Lois or at
me.

Let's assume it's at Lois.  Zoomway, you have mentioned quite a few times
in this forum how during year one and the summer following, you had to
defend Lois against people (on the newsgroup and elsewhere) who despised
her for a variety of reasons.

If someone back then had called her "thick as a brick"

         --for it not occurring to her that the suit might come off or
     for her having agreed to marry the 2nd richest man in the
     world after Superman (whose life she had saved several times,
     and whose secrets she kept) wouldn't even take her into his
     confidence (or even warn, "Don't marry Lex, Lois, I don't
     trust him"), --

how would you have responded back then? How did you defend that "thick as a
brick" woman?

I truly wish to know this, because right now it looks to me that if you
think that Lois was "as thick as a brick", then your defense of her back
then must have been... interesting to say the least.

If your cute remark was a veiled flame at me, well, that's your perogative.

But for now, I'll try to stop defending Lois Lane in any of her
incarnations (except those I write), it's just not worth my limited time
and I'm not going to change my complex opinion of her anyhow. I'll leave
the defense of her as displayed on the show up to those who have a long
history of, well, claiming they had a habit of rushing to her defense from
the beginning. :\

Debby
Debby@swcp.com
who is thinking seriously of
taking a vacation from all this...
(not withstanding that work is picking up
again and there are too few of us for
me to think of taking a *real*
vacation this year...)
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Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 04:35:46 EDT
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From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      last time  (was Re: "The Chicken and Egg Debate"
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First, I want to promise this is my last post on this thread.  I hadn't
intended to post on it again because some see the thread as 'off topic',
but
I'm responding this time because apparently a *big* misunderstanding has
taken
place, and so I'd better address that. So, onward...

I wrote:

>...DJL and her brother Dan
>wrote the 1rst season finale, and so it's not like we're talking "one-shot"
>writers here who didn't know the characters.<<<

Deb responded:

>>Why do you suppose they wrote them that way?<<<<

Well, that was actually part of the response from your previous post
regarding
the 1rst season finale where Lois was written so poorly, you said that maybe
'no one paid any heed to what it did to Lois's character' and I responded
"I'd
hate to think that DJL of all people would have 'paid no heed..."   I truly
feel that way.  DJL wasn't a one-shot writer, nor was her brother Dan.

>>>Was it what they wanted to
write or did abc have any influence over the matter? Was the final product
what DJL&DL wanted to see on the screen? If this is how they wanted to
write the show, why do you suppose that abc/wb get rid of them anyhow? In
those two episodes, Lois was dumbed down and subdued, Clark was largely
abcent, Lex was killed off, romance between L&C faltered and almost
died--isn't this what abc wanted?<<<

But see, when the same excuse was applied to ERL/Bucker with the so-called
"wedding argh", that didn't fly with you, why should this "ABC made me do
it"
justification fly with me in this case?<g>  I'd say in *both* cases the
writers had choices even with ABC breathing down their necks and issuing
mandates and that in *both* cases the respective writers/producers chose
poorly.

>>>I didn't say "as if nothing ever happened." You did. I said: "she managed
to bounce back from every insult and become a fuller, more interesting
person
in the process." If you don't think so, fine with me.<<<<

Sorry, I should have been more clear.  The idea that someone "bounces back"
means that someone was down in order *to* bounce back, but since the series
did modular (stand-alone) epiosdes in 1rst season, each new episode was
treated like nothing from the preceding episode had impacted on the
characters.  It was also what was wrong (among many other things) with the
wedding arc.  The characters were back acting almost like it was a 1rst
season
event, and that almost having the greatest time of their lives ruined was no
big deal.  Lois and Clark both "bounced back" nicely because it wasn't
treated
like something that had them down to begin with.

>>>I'd hate to think that as well, but I have no clues about what pressures
she was under, if any (note my questions above), when she wrote whatever
she and DL wrote of BatP and HoL. I know she did fine work before that, as
a writer but more so in running the show, so why suddenly the change?<<<

Again the same justificiation could be applied to ERL/BB "I don't know what
kind of pressure [they] were under.."  but beyond that, I think DJL's work
had
it's good and its so-so bits like most writers.

I said:

>>>[snip] The issue for me is *why*? Why did Lois almost marry Lex?
[snip]<<<

you replied:

>>>Okay, why do *you* think she did?<<

That was *my* question<g> It still is.

I said:

>>or maybe she thought that was the
>natural coloration of Kryptonian males, and when they molt, they have that
>hot, tight, black suit ;)<<<

you replied:

>>>Since you hate to think she was stupid, why then *do* you think she said
the line?<<<

I think like many lines and sight gags, it was there for the humor of it.
To
me it had no deeper meaning than say Clark sneezing when he had no real
reason
to sneeze in ASU other than blowing a taxicab into a fire hydrant.  It was
done because it was *funny*  I still laugh every time I see that sneeze<g>

>>>think she said it *not* because she thought it was impossible for the
suit to come off, but because she more than anyone else knew that Superman
was busy, maybe 24 hours a day, and invulnerable to boot. To think that he
might actually stop to do something so mundane as enjoying a shower was
assounding to her. <<<<<

I'd agree if it weren't so clearly lust motivated on Lois's part<g>  Not
that
I blame her! Lois even asked if Clark saw him  and Clark said "I didn't
look"
then Lois gets a grip on herself and says  "No, of course not ... I wouldn't
either" (hee hee ;)  It did make Lois seem a bit dense, but sometimes lust
can
do that ("It's 9, I thought you'd be naked" ;) same deal, a gag line, or "I
had a little muscle..mishap!"  They are there throughout the series and they
serve their main purpose, they make us laugh ;)

you worte:

>>>Typical Lois: a true hera without superpowers.<<<

and I responded:

>>>>Uh huh, and as thick as a brick<g><<<<

Then the part that really stunned me:

>>>Oh, that's cute. I don't know if that comment is a nasty jab at Lois or
at
me.<<<

Deb, I would *never* turn any difference of opinion into a personal attack.
It's clear that you were talking about Lois and I responded about Lois *not*
you.  You said "typical Lois" where in my reply to that would you get the
impression I was speaking of you and not Lois?  To clear this up just in
case,
it was most definitely not directed at you. To steal a line from Clark
"That's
*not* how I work."  I've had to sign on the list and *stop* people from
making
personal attacks, so I would be about the least likely person to employ
'flaming'.  It's true we disagree, heck I disagree with a lot of people, but
I
would never flame them.  I apologize if you think there was anything in that
reply that was aimed at you.  Later in the same post I said I thought Shaggy
and Scooby-Doo were both kind of cute, but also "thick as bricks", and that
wasn't aimed at anyone else either.

>>>Let's assume it's at Lois.  Zoomway, you have mentioned quite a few times
in this forum how during year one and the summer following, you had to
defend Lois against people (on the newsgroup and elsewhere) who despised
her for a variety of reasons.<<<

Yes, it was most definitely aimed at Lois, and yes, I had to defend Lois a
lot
first season.

>>>how would you have responded back then? How did you defend that "thick as
a
brick" woman?<<

>I truly wish to know this, because right now it looks to me that if you
>think that Lois was "as thick as a brick", then your defense of her back
>then must have been... interesting to say the least.<<<<

As the show was actually airing back 1rst season, the things Lois was
attacked
for had to do with things that later resolved themselves over the course of
the series, and so no longer upset fans, but a lot of fans had posts like
this
at the time back in 94 (actual snips from 1rst season LOISCLA posts):

"Will someone _please_ tell me what Clark sees in this woman?  Is this the
woman he really wants to take home to his mother?"

My reply:

"Clark sees a woman of passion, and maybe one day he hopes that passion will
be redirected towards him, but at least for Clark, it's worth waiting for.
He
also sees a side to Lois that others don't.  She might hide or decry
positive
emotions in public, but he's seen her softer moments, like her feelings for
her dad, believing in both Superman and Clark when no one else believed in
them (even Clark doubting himself) caring for Amy Valdez, believing in
Eugene
Latterman's innocence, etc. All of this with her heart instead of her 'mad
dog
Lane' instincts...."
*******

"I feel so sorry for Clark, he's like a great chef preparing a gourmet meal
for Lois, but she turns her nose up at it every time."

My response:

"Did Clark ever *ask* what Lois wanted for dinner?<G> Escargot is considered
'gourmet' too, but I sure wouldn't order it!  That's the point. Right now,
Superman seems more 'appetizing' than Clark to Lois, but I don't doubt for a
minute that once Clark hits on the right recipe, he and Lois will start
cooking...."
******

"I don't know if I can keep watching this show any more!!! It was bad enough
that Lois coldly turned down Clark's sweet confession of love, but then to
twist the knife and tell Clark as Superman that she'd love him as a normal
man, it just irked me!!  I was hoping he would fly out that window and never
come back!.."

My response:

Why is Lois being blamed for not loving Clark the way *he* wants to be
loved?
That's what happened, isn't it?  Why in the world did Clark think Lois would
accept his 'sweet confession of love' when he above *anyone* else knew
Lois's
heart belonged to Superman?  What sense did that make?  Lois warned Clark
from
the beginning, "Don't fall for me farm boy..."  Clark ignored said warning
and
pursued her anyway. That being the case, every Lois Lane  heel mark on his
heart *he* put there by pursuing someone who warned him not to. I don't
fault
Clark for pursuing Lois, but I *do* fault him for treating her so nasty when
he should have known who she would turn to.  He broke her heart as Superman
because he knew it was the deepest wound he could inflict on her. And what's
with that mean-spirited comment about her not putting on a robe unless it's
lined with lead? He made it sound like he x-rays her when it suits him for
some cheap thrill.  You know, on this series it's almost as impossible to
love
Lois as it is to hate Clark, but this episode brought me perilously close to
hating him."
********

Anyway, *those* were the pressing issues 1rst season with fans regarding
Lois
and how I defended her. What Lois was criticized for back then was for not
loving Clark as 'Clark' instead of as Superman. Even her general attitude
was
attacked back then. Believe me, when you create a character that causes one
fan to comment "I actually enjoyed seeing the villain choking Lois" [Fly
Hard]
some very bad signals were being sent out.  These rarely, if ever, are the
issues now with everyone knowing Lois finally did fall for Clark, but back
then, geez, it was a bloodbath<g>  However, my "thick as a brick" comment
only
referred to *one* line out of all of first season, not to Lois herself
throughout the season and not even to Lois throughout the episode (MOSB) the
line was from!  I happen to think that Lois was truly great in that episode.
She believed in Superman and Clark and wasn't going to give up and she
didn't.
It was also a pivotal episode in that Lois reached a point where she didn't
know who she'd miss more, Clark, or Superman.  She also knew that Superman
had
to do what he was born to do, even if that meant breaking a court order and
best of all Clark knew she knew that ;)  On top of that, it was written by a
"one-shot" writer who wrote a Lois who was confident, but not harsh, a Lois
who was caring, but not weak, and a Lois who solved the case.  I couldn't
ask
for much more than that ;)

>>>If your cute remark was a veiled flame at me, well, that's your
perogative.<<

It most definitely was not aimed at you in any way.

>>>But for now, I'll try to stop defending Lois Lane in any of her
incarnations (except those I write), it's just not worth my limited time
and I'm not going to change my complex opinion of her anyhow.<<<

No one wants you to change your opinion, least of all me, but an exchange of
opinions, no matter how they differ is part of the fun (usually) of an
e-mail
discussion list.  I won't likely change my opinion either, nor will I stop
defending it, because it is important to me.

>>>I'll leave
the defense of her as displayed on the show up to those who have a long
history of, well, claiming they had a habit of rushing to her defense from
the beginning. :\<<<

To me, there's a great difference between blindly defending everything
someone
does, and defending only those points you feel are worth defending.  I never
blindly defended Lois or justified every single thing she did back in 1rst
season where she seemed to be under constant attack.  I thought she deserved
the 'Godzilla' comeupance in Neverending Battle, more importantly *she* knew
she deserved it too.  I don't 'claim' I defended Lois, I *did* defend her,
but
*only* when I thought the attack on her was unjustififed.  I remember one
thread on the list 1rst season "If you could be Clark or Superman, who would
you rather be"  along about the time that thread was running, yet another
attack against Lois was launched, I wrote "Other people get to *choose* if
they want to be Clark or Superman, but I have no choice. Once again I put on
my cape and fly out the window to defend Lois..." and I was only halfway
joking<g>

>>>who is thinking seriously of
taking a vacation from all this...
(not withstanding that work is picking up
again and there are too few of us for
me to think of taking a *real*
vacation this year...)<<<

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself, and hope
you're
not serious about taking a vacation from the list.  I promise if you stay
that
I won't take on any of your posts.  I'll let them be.  I can tell when
someone
is angry or hurt and I fear I caused you to feel both, and for that I am
truly
sorry.

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:28:56 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Carmille Caluag <Ellimrac@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Superboy Question
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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       A couple of months ago I heard about a Superboy Fanfic series and I
was
wondering whatever became of it.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:46:34 PDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "K.C. Boyd" <miracles4me@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The chicken and the egg
Content-Type: text/plain

I think all of you just complicated a simple question.  "Was it wrong
for Lois to fall in love with Superman while at the same time ignoring
Clark."  First of all the question itself is phrased poorly.  Lois
didn't know Clark was Superman, to her they were different people.  Let
say, for example, Clark doesn't have superpowers.  Lois meets Clark and
another guy we'll call Bob.  Is it ok for Lois to fall in love with Bob
and not Clark? HECK YES!  She can fall in love with whoever she wants.
True, Clark and Superman are the same person, but Lois doesn't know
that.  To her they are completely different people with different
personalities.  Add to that to Superman's tendency to fly in her window
and throw compliments at her, Clark Kent doesn't stand a chance.

Your judging Lois's actions on information she doesn't have.  If you
asking weather it is ok for her to love one person while ignoring
another. Yes, it is.  If your asking weather it is Ok for her to ignore
Clark.  Yes to that to.  If your asking weather it is Ok for her to love
Superman.  That depends on weather she loves him for his powers or for
who she thinks he is.

K.C. (trying to simplify, but probably making it worse)

______________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:18:11 +0200
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         NKWolke <NKWolke@T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject:      Help! Respect because of Godzilla?!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Hi Folcs,
I'm facing a problem with a fanfiction I'm working on and I thought that
maybe
you guys could help me.

The story is mainly about Jimmy. He is sitting at an award ceremony and he's
so
nervous that he's trying to distract himself by looking back to the years
when he
first started working for the Daily Planet.

He remembers all the newsroom gossip (the title of the story is "Gossip has
it
that...) and this naturally leads him to the hottest gossip topic of all
years:
The love story of Lane and Kent.

The chapter I'm pasting below comes very early in the story. It is about the
episode where Lois stole Clark's story and he took revenge by sending her on
this
goose chase for Superman's spacecraft.

One of my several problems with this chapter is: I don't like Clark's
behavior
here very much. Of course it is understandable that he is mad and that he
want's
to show Lois that she can't treat him like a puppy dog. She owns him some
respect, but I don't hink that this silly trap is a very grown up way to get
respect.

And it gets even worse when it comes to the consequences of his revenge,
because
respect is exactly what he gets. Lois *really* respects him more after that
incident and I'm struggling now how to explain it. Why does she respect him
more?
Because he behaves as bad as she does? Because he has shown her what a "man"
he
is?

And to make my trouble really unbearable not only Lois is impressed, Jimmy
takes
Clark's "revenge" as a sign to stand up against Perry White. What is the
message
here? If somebody treats you bad, treat him (or her in this case) bad in
return
and then everybody will think you are a really brave person?

I tried to explain it not with the "actual treatment", but with Clark's
behaviour
after that episode, but I'm still not satisfied.

Maybe you guys have a solution. Maybe I see it wrong and you can tell me
what the
message really is?

BTW this story is totally unfinished and no proof reader has laid an eye on
it
yet, so the language is probably pretty bad. Please bear with me here
because I'm
not a native speaker.

take care
Nicole
AKA CKgroupie on IRC
NKWolke@t-online.de

******************************************************************************
"Gossip has it that..." (Excerpt)

****

Actually it was a story about Superman, that had brought the first big
change in
the relationship of Lois and Clark and it had also brought a big change in
Jimmy's life. It was only a few weeks after Clark had started working for
the
Planet. He had worked with Lois on the story about Space-station Prometheus
and
Perry was very satisfied with this story. Now Perry demanded more stories
about
the mysterious, flying man and assigned his whole team to it. Lois was
furious of
course, because *she* had been the one who wrote the first article about
Superman
and *she* wanted the rights for the Superman-story, but Perry only shrugged
his
shoulders when she complaint about it and said that Superman was a „too big
deal"
to let only one reporter work on a story about him. So Lois was very mad and
she
did something unforgivable. When she arrived too late for a scoop on
Superman
saving two suicides and found Clark had beat her there, she stole the story
and
wrote it in her own name.

Boy, had Clark been mad about that! Gossip on the other hand was delighted
of
course. That was *it*, that was the occasion that would open Clark's eyes
about
Lois and turn the crush into enmity! The staff members couldn't wait to see
a
fight between Mad Dog and the shy guy from Kansas. She would shred him into
pieces of course (poor boy) but to see Lois in action was always interesting
for
the greedy audience!

Jimmy remembered Clark's hurt expression when Lois told him bluntly that he
shouldn't have been so naive and trust her. Nobody should trust anybody
these
days and now he had learned his lesson.
„Is Lois always like this?" Clark had asked him and Jimmy, though a friend
of
Lois and always ready to defend her couldn't deny that the name „Mad Dog"
wasn't
so far fetched.

He had had his own trouble to this time. Perry White seemed to see him only
as
some kind of slave. He never gave him any chance to work at something
newspaper
related. He had known that he had to do the minor work when he took the job
and
he was ready to do that, but he had also hoped to get a chance to do some
newspaper-work like all the other research workers! The only man who seemed
to
notice his desperation was Clark Kent. He told him to go to Perry and to
talk
with him about it, but Jimmy was afraid to do this. Man, Perry White was the
Chief-editor of the biggest newspaper in the world! He couldn't just go to
him
and complain about his job, could he? Clark shrugged his shoulders: „If
you're
unhappy with your job and you think you could do better you have to stand up
and
tell him. It doesn't matter if he's the chief or just Mindy from research.
You
need a little more courage, Jimmy."

Jimmy thought about this a lot and even started one try to talk with the
chief,
but he couldn't go through with it. After all it was easy for Clark to tell
him
he should just go to Perry! *He* wasn't the one who had to face it! It was
always
easier to give good advice than to act them out!
But then Clark showed him that *he* had this kind of courage! He had been
still
mad about Lois stealing his story and he managed to teach her a lesson she
wouldn't forget soon. He not even got the next big Superman-story, he also
showed
Lois that it wasn't wise to get too biased with a story.
Lois had been a „mad dog" like never before. She was so obsessed with
Superman
that she forgot about everything else and every professional pride she had
to get
this story. So she stole Clark's story and used ideas from other coworkers
to
find Superman until one day a mysterious package was sent to her apartment.
Normally Lois would have been much too suspicious to just follow the advice
in
that message that lead her to the canalization of Metropolis, but Lois was
so
obsessed with her story that she blindly went into the silly trap Clark had
laid
out for her. Clark later admitted that he had been so sorry afterwards and
that
he even had tried to stop the package before Lois got it, but she hadn't
listen
to him, when he tried to tell her. So Lois literally crouched through the
mud of
Metropolis, searching for Superman's spaceship only to find a very silly
Godzilla-figure in red Briefs at the described location!

Gossip was excited like never before. Lois defended by a coworker! Never had
something like this happened to her! Who had thought that this Clark Kent
had it
in him?! Boy, now she would be mad! Now she would run ballistic! Now he had
the
worst enemy on this world! Watch out Clark Kent if Lois Lane hated you there
was
no silver lining in *your* future! And he could be so proud! He was the
first man
in the staff who managed to make Lois speechless! What would happen now?
What
would she do? How would she take revenge and how would he respond?

But then it turned out that they all had been wrong. Clark didn't revel in
the
feeling of his victory about the arrogance of Lois Lane. Nobody heard one
bad
word about her from him. His expression was as soft and gentle like it had
been
before when he looked at her and Lois on the other hand did the
unimaginable. She
not only forgave him, she even started to behave more friendly towards him.
Obviously he had earned her respect. Not for the way he had treated her when
he
had taken his revenge, but for the way he behaved afterwards. She realized
that
she had underestimated Clark Kent. This man was *not* a hack from Kansas. He
was
a good reporter and he was also a nice guy who didn’t want to be her enemy
but
who wasn't afraid of her either. She had only the choice to work against him
or
to work with him and to her own surprise she suddenly found it hard to take
the
first option.

****

Jimmy chuckled inwardly when he remembered how impressed he had been about
Clark
and how brave he had felt when he took the first opportunity to speak with
Perry
White. To his big surprise the chief not only didn't fire him, Jimmy
couldn't
help the feeling that Perry even had *wanted* him to stand up and express
his
feelings about the job. He didn't give him any stories to work on of course,
but
he suddenly gave him the opportunity to learn a lot about the work of an
journalist. After another year Jimmy could tell himself without exaggeration
the
best researcher in the city. Lois and Clark for example never wanted to work
with
anybody else!

After that first Superman-incident Perry White partnered Lois with Clark. At
first Lois protested of course, but only half heartily  because inside she
probably had figured out that Lane and Kent could really become a good team.
And
Perry had been right. They got nearly *every* important story in Metropolis.
Numerous editors from the other newspapers made them more than generous
offers
just to get these two in their own staff and they won award after award
during
the years. Had Lois been famous as a reporter, it was nothing against the
credits
she got after being partnered with Clark. Lane and Kent almost immediately
became
a synonym for high quality journalism.

****

to be continued :-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:41:13 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "Hall, Melissa" <MHall05@SPRINTSPECTRUM.COM>
Subject:      Re: Help! Respect because of Godzilla?!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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>Maybe you guys have a solution. Maybe I see it wrong and you can tell me
what
>the message really is?

Well, I don't claim to be the one true source of enlightenment and
answers, but here's my opinion:

I don't see it as 'revenge'. I guess I don't like to think that Clark
would resort to juvenile revenge tactics. I do think that Lois needed to
be taught a lesson. Whatever Mad Dog did in the past, she felt she
deserved respect, and therefore demanded it, but also gave respect in
return, at least to those people she felt had earned it.

However, Lois lost the right to be respected when she went beyond even
what _she_ considered to be acceptable limits- and stole Clark's story.
She probably knew that what she was doing was wrong, but her obsession
with Superman was so commanding, that she didn't care.

I think Clark saw that, and felt that she needed to be brought up short-
to be shown that her obsession wasn't really a healthy thing and that it
was destroying her ethics and the respect of her co-workers. (Okay-
maybe there was a teeny bit of revenge in there...:)

And I think that Lois realized that- sitting in the middle of Mosquito
Central, having followed a lead that should have seemed as fishy as a
deep-sea trench, holding a little Super-Godzilla- realized that she'd
thrown out all of her ethics, standards, and common sense for a story.
And I'd guess that it would take all of it- the false trail and the
smell and the dirt and the bugs- to really drive home the message that
she was wrong. (Well, that and the wonderful image of her limping into
the DP.)

It must have been a long, hobbling walk back to the Planet, and I don't
doubt that she wondered the whole time exactly which co-worker (or
boss?) had dared the wrath of 'Mad Dog' to teach her a lesson. She
probably had most of the newsroom cowed by then, so Clark was probably
the last person she would have guessed to have sent her off on the wild
Godzilla chase, and _that's_ why he earned her respect- because he
didn't lie down like a rug and let her walk all over him, like she
probably expected him to. He showed her that 'mild-mannered' and
'polite' and 'trusting' did not mean that Clark was a doormat. And it
was probably those same traits that made it easier for her to take the
lesson as a lesson and not as revenge- he didn't gloat or try to rub it
in afterwards.

As far as the lesson that Jimmy learned: that's a little more difficult.
I'd like to say that he saw Lois and Clark in the same position as Perry
and himself- and when Clark didn't like the way he was being treated and
did something about it, then Jimmy realized that he too, did not have to
be a doormat (I hope he also realized that sending Perry to the dump
would have gotten him fired. :)

Anyway- feel free to disagree with me or to take my opinion as gospel
truth.

Misha

PS- Nicole- if you want a proofreader, just let me know.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:29:32 PDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "K.C. Boyd" <miracles4me@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Help! Respect because of Godzilla?!
Content-Type: text/plain

>>Maybe you guys have a solution. Maybe I see it wrong and you can tell
me what
>>the message really is?

>Well, I don't claim to be the one true source of enlightenment and
>answers, but here's my opinion:
>
>I don't see it as 'revenge'. I guess I don't like to think that Clark
>would resort to juvenile revenge tactics. I do think that Lois >needed
to be taught a lesson. Whatever Mad Dog did in the past, she >felt she
deserved respect, and therefore demanded it, but also gave >respect in
return, at least to those people she felt had earned it.

I agree with that, but I did think that while it taught her a lesson it
was slightly juvenile. And out of character for Clark to put someone in
danger.  But that was probably because right before I saw the ep I
watched a documentary on diseases caused by poor health conditions.  I
even started along the lines of a fic where Lois got sick as a result of
that and Clark felt guilty... but that was also because I wanted to see
how early in their relationship I could bring them together.  I decided
not to write it because I'm a bad writer and I didn't want to make you
guys suffer through one of my stories  and I'm drifting now so I'll
stop.

K.C. (who can type forever about nothing)

______________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:25:39 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Annette Ciotola <AMCiotola@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Lois & Clark on CD Rom
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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My apologies to those who recieved this twice...

Hey FoLCs,

I am just putting a feel out for something new.

Through the help of a local friend I have been able to put together a CD-rom
full of Lois & Clark.  This is a compilation of wavs, avis, and jpgs from my
own sources as well as various sources on the internet.

It is not intended for profit, but rather to help out FoLCs that would like
to
have the information on one disk.

I have found it can help save space on the harddrive, because everything can
play right off the CD and it is also a great way to keep a back up of all
your
LnC stuff.

Right now I would be looking for about $10 per CD to cover the costs in
putting it together, plus shipping (it would be slightly more for over seas
depending upon how it was shipped.)

Again, this is just for getting an idea to see who would be interested.

If you are, then please email me PRIVATLEY with your opinions at :

aciotola@epix.net
or
AMCiotola@aol.com

Thank you,
Anne :)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:07:34 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Ron Langman <RonL623507@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Lois and clark screensaver
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Can anyone please let me know if they know of any Lois and Clark or Superman
screensaver.  I remember a couple lof months ago, someone was going to put a
flying superman cape screensaver up on their website.  What ever happened to
that.
Thanks
Ronnie
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:32:35 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         -Audrey Howard <Moped12646@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Lois & Clark on CD Rom
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I think a Lois & Clark  CD Rom would be great!!!!

Audrey Howard
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:34:18 -0600
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Debby Stark <debby@SWCP.COM>
Subject:      Re: Help! Respect because of Godzilla?!
In-Reply-To:  <m0yuLGl-0003E2C@fwd05.btx.dtag.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 08:18 PM 7/9/98 +0200, you wrote:

>[megasnip] Why does she respect him more?

I suspect it's because he's the first peer who stood up to her, who didn't
back off, who didn't turn away. This is so unusual that she didn't know how
to handle it so she treated it almost lightly, flippantly, as though his
prank *hadn't* made any difference to her at all.

But it did.

I strongly doubt he would do anything similar to a superior (in age,
experience or on the job) or to anyone under him (ditto). But he felt it
was worth the try and that maybe he'd succeed. Was he sinking to her
level... or was he simply showing her what it felt like? I guess your
answer will be in what Jimmy thinks of it, as he's your POV character.

Debby
Debby@swcp.com
congratulating you
on choosing JO as a POV :)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:51:56 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Help! Respect because of Godzilla?!
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In a message dated 98-07-09 14:29:13 EDT, you write:

<< The chapter I'm pasting below comes very early in the story. It is about
the
 episode where Lois stole Clark's story and he took revenge by sending her
on
this
 goose chase for Superman's spacecraft. >>

Maybe it would help to think in terms of 'comeuppance' rather than 'revenge'
regarding what Clark did.  There's a bit of a line between the two, but
"comeuppance" means 'a deserved punishment'  and "revenge" ... is for
suckers
... and villains<g> The one thing that marks the difference between the two
is
motive.  The revenge motive is almost always inspired by hatred, anger,
jealousy or in lesser fomrs; hurt feelings. There's a need to inflict harm
to
the same or greater degree than was inflicted. A comeupance is seen more as
a
lesson ( a 'life lesson' ;) A comeuppance isn't just seen by the person who
delivers it as deserved, but also by most everyone else, including the
recipient (Lois).  Sometimes victims of revenge don't even know what they
did
to cause another person to want to take revenge on them.  An example of this
might be Barbarians at the Planet where Superman broke Lois's heart and she
had no clue as to why.  However in Neverending Battle, Lois knew *exactly*
what she did and that it was wrong and that she deserved to be called on it
because she was literally out of control.

>>>And to make my trouble really unbearable not only Lois is impressed,
Jimmy
takes
Clark's "revenge" as a sign to stand up against Perry White. What is the
message
here? If somebody treats you bad, treat him (or her in this case) bad in
return
and then everybody will think you are a really brave person?<<<

I think it was the elements in the episode that were in play as to how it
all
turned out. Lois was over the top in her pursuit of Superman; compromising
her
journalistic ethics not so much for the story, but for an obsession.  Perry
was pushing Jimmy, not to be mean, but to get him to stand up for himself.
If
Jimmy didn't resent being an errand boy and fixing "Mr Foot" or remounting
bass, then there'd be no problem, but he did resent it and Clark's actions
showed him that sometimes you just have to make a statement. Not to mention
Clark didn't just set the trap for Lois because of the wrong she had done to
him (stealing his story) but for all the wrongs she had committed (steeling
Jimmy's idea and another staffer's source)  I was proud of *both* Lois and
Clark in this episode. Clark, because he was letting Lois know that he
wouldn't just "take it" and proud of Lois for granting Clark the
"satisfaction" (no gutter intended ;) of letting him know she'd sprung the
trap.  She understood why he had taken such action and congratulated him on
calling her on her poor behavior.  If you think about it, Lois could have
been
small about it, gone home, cleaned up and no one would have known what she'd
gone through, but she felt Clark deserved his 'moment in the sun' and so
gave
him that by showing up all dirty and disheveled carrying the Godzilla doll
and
congratulating him in front of everyone.

The best part of all of it, Nicky, is that Clark isn't being mean or
spiteful.
He even regrets sending the map to her and almost warns her, but even though
she ends up falling for the trap, and telling Clark he "won", look at his
expression, that's not what he intended and that's what he tells her.   It
was
Clark's way of saying "I'm your equal, not your underling" and doing so in a
way that impressed Lois and did start them off on more of an equal footing
together.

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:24:56 -0800
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Superboy Question
In-Reply-To:  <81f78287.35a4e1b9@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>       A couple of months ago I heard about a Superboy Fanfic series and I
was
>wondering whatever became of it.

If it's any help -- there's a link from the Season 5 site to the Superboy
site, although I haven't checked it for a bit -- visit my page below and
follow the links (ok, so I'm hopeless at remembering URLs!)

The plan was to have it premiere this fall ....

Leanne

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 00:56:09 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         salymc <salymc@GATEWAY.NET>
Subject:      OK,
              Now It's Time For Everyone to Move on to the Next Big
Breakthrough
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C3_01BDAB9D.86B584A0"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00C3_01BDAB9D.86B584A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Everyone:

This message is more personal than fanfic-ish or even Lois and =
Clark-ish.  I now have my very own, very personal computer at home to =
use for all kinds of nefarious deeds like sending e-mail to the list at =
12:45 a.m. EST, while sitting in my ....  Well, never mind.   In =
addition, I also have this (to my mind) temporary e-mail account with =
Gateway until I can figure out what internet service provider gets a =
chance to facilitate the dissemination of my "brilliant" bull.  The =
address is:

salymc@gateway.net

which leads one to the conclusion that a person should never choose an =
on-line name at 2:00 a.m. in the morning after several beers.  Be that =
as it may, I am now free to surf the internet's many fine offerings with =
wild abandon.  Um ... just where does one download "wild abandon" =
anyway?

Okay, Beth what's that secret nfic word now?  I have one or two things =
to say about those stories.<g>

Sandy -- Sad that I'm a little too late for L&C on-line chats, but very =
happy to be joining the 20th century just as it's taking its bow.

------=_NextPart_000_00C3_01BDAB9D.86B584A0
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hi Everyone:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>This message is more personal than =
fanfic-ish or=20
even Lois and Clark-ish.&nbsp; I now have my very own, very personal =
computer at=20
home to use for all kinds of nefarious deeds like sending e-mail to the =
list at=20
12:45 a.m. EST, while sitting in my ....&nbsp; Well, never =
mind.&nbsp;&nbsp; In=20
addition, I also have this (to my mind) temporary e-mail account with =
Gateway=20
until I can figure out what internet service provider gets a chance to=20
facilitate the dissemination of my &quot;brilliant&quot; bull.&nbsp; The =
address=20
is:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:salymc@gateway.net">salymc@gateway.net</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>which leads one to the conclusion =
that a person=20
should never choose an on-line name at 2:00 a.m. in the morning after =
several=20
beers.&nbsp; Be that as it may, I am now free to surf the internet's =
many fine=20
offerings with wild abandon.&nbsp; Um ... just where does one download=20
&quot;wild abandon&quot; anyway?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Okay, Beth what's that secret nfic =
word=20
now?&nbsp; I have one or two things to say about those=20
stories.&lt;g&gt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Sandy -- Sad that I'm a little too =
late for=20
L&amp;C on-line chats, but very happy to be joining the 20th century =
just as=20
it's taking its bow.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00C3_01BDAB9D.86B584A0--
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 06:36:24 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         No Name Available <Larus2407@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The SoulMates Chronicles:  Sea Hawk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Thanks for another SoulMates Chronicle. Without giving the plot away, I did
notice one typo in the very beginning. <g> <<Besides, this man does not look
harmless.">> I think you (Lolita) meant does look harmless.

I have to admit, at first I thought perhaps the Lois & Clark souls in this
era
were going to turn out to be brother and sister. I guess I do wonder how
many
times they came together in other forms than lovers. Perhaps father and
daughter? Twins? Grandparent and grandchild? Even one of them 20 years older
than the other? Both men? Both women? All Wells said was whereever she is,
there you (Clark) are also--or something like that.

--Laurie
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:44:36 +0100
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         R Fuller <LoCla@HOPPA.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:      Lois & Clark CD Rom Warning
MIME-Version: 1.0

Hi

This isn't meant to be harsh sounding and I like your idea, however I
wanted to send a warning from an experience I had recently.  I didn't
make a cd but I wanted to buy one.  Ok you may not be looking for profit
but you could still get in serious trouble with Warner Bros anyway.

About 4 months ago now in a British magazine called CULT TV they were
advertising a cd-rom which contained over 100 screensavers and images
from sci-fi shows.  Well because it had 'Lois & Clark' things I ordered
it.  However it never came.  When I heard nothing back from the cd
company I contacted CULT TV magazine.  They said they were very sorry
but it turned out the makers of this cd-rom had not asked permission to
use any of the material and Warner Bros and Fox and other big companies
had found out and were prosocuting.  CULT TV were also prosocuting this
firm because of it too.  I won't now be getting my cd-rom.  I think
these people are probably regular people like yourself who just thought
it would be a nice idea for fans.

If you want anymore information email me.  However I thought I should
warn you.  Lovely idea but it might be wise to ask permission of Warner
Bro's or check out the position with the law first.

I hope this has come across Ok, it is just I didn't want to see anyone
get in trouble.

Rowan Fuller

LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
My apologies to those who recieved this twice...

Hey FoLCs,

I am just putting a feel out for something new.

Through the help of a local friend I have been able to put together a
CD-rom
full of Lois & Clark.  This is a compilation of wavs, avis, and jpgs
from my
own sources as well as various sources on the internet.

It is not intended for profit, but rather to help out FoLCs that would
like to
have the information on one disk.

I have found it can help save space on the harddrive, because everything
can
play right off the CD and it is also a great way to keep a back up of
all your
LnC stuff.

Right now I would be looking for about $10 per CD to cover the costs in
putting it together, plus shipping (it would be slightly more for over
seas
depending upon how it was shipped.)

Again, this is just for getting an idea to see who would be interested.

If you are, then please email me PRIVATLEY with your opinions at :

aciotola@epix.net
or
AMCiotola@aol.com

Thank you,
Anne :)

--
R Fuller
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:03:25 +0200
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         NKWolke <NKWolke@T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject:      Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT

Hi Folcs,
thank you all very much for your answers to my Godzilla-problem :-)

I think I have less problems with Lois' reaction to Clark now. I liked
Melissa's
picture of Lois crouching through the mud, thinking about how bad she had
been.
And it is probably like Zoomie wrote, that Lois "was out of control" and
Clark
needed to make a statement. Maybe it was a little bit like a "shock-therapy"
for
her, but she obviously came to her senses. BTW I always admired the way
*she*
handled the situation. That she came to Clark and congratulated him in front
of
everyone showed her style, didn't it?

I also know, that Clark was sorry afterwards and I particularly like this
last
scene, when he tells her that he didn't "win". He didn't want to "win"
because
competition with Lois is not his intention. It is too early to talk about
partnership, but he at least wants to be her colleague and he wants her
respect
as a journalist. *My* point of view was clear during the epsiode. I think
Lois
deserved it and Clark made up for the silly idea, by wanting to warn her and
by
talking to her like he did in the last scene.

Unfortunately Jimmy wasn't there when this last conversation took place and
I'm
still struggling with *his* point of view. In my story Jimmy takes Clark as
a
role model, especially for his way to treat women. In the beginning he
doesn't
understand Clark's relationship to the several women who come onto him at
all. He
 wonders if Clark is gay or crazy or really the "slow-top" the newsroom
gossip
calls him, because Clark seems to be oblivious to every other woman except
Lois.
But then he more and more starts to recognize what *real* love is all about
and
that Clark just doesn't want to make compromizes.

I don't want Jimmy to think that a realtionship is built on power-fights. I
want him to think that it is built on respect. Maybe I'm just going to
describe
Jimmys thoughts about this incident a little further. He thinks about it and
his
first reaction is what we saw in the episode.  And then he wonders why Lois
really appreciates Clark more. I could even write a similar scene he
overhears,
with Clark and Lois talking about work, a relaationship between colleagues,
competition at work or anything like that. It's *my* story after all <g>.
Maybe
then I can make Jimmy find the solution I want him to find :-)

Nicole
AKA CKgroupie on IRC
NKWolke@t-online.de
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:52:16 +0100
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Angee Chaudhry <angee.chaudhry@FASTC.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Lois and clark screensaver
In-Reply-To:  <7cdb4007.35a55b47@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0

In message <7cdb4007.35a55b47@aol.com>, Ron Langman <RonL623507@AOL.COM>
writes
>Can anyone please let me know if they know of any Lois and Clark or
Superman
>screensaver.  I remember a couple lof months ago, someone was going to put
a
>flying superman cape screensaver up on their website.  What ever happened
to
>that.
>Thanks
>Ronnie

Hi Ronnie,

I can't say for sure where to find it but I can point you in the right
direction ..

try Jenny Stossers website as you may find something there .. I haven't
seen the screensaver personally but at least you will be one step
closer.

The website is:

 http://www.ozramp.net.au/~jenerate

Good luck ..

Angee
--
Angee Chaudhry
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:19:33 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "Georgia E. Walden" <gwalde14@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject:      Re: The SoulMates Chronicles:  Sea Hawk
In-Reply-To:  <3b8ba73b.35a5eea9@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:36 AM 7/10/98 EDT, you wrote:
>I have to admit, at first I thought perhaps the Lois & Clark souls in this
era
>were going to turn out to be brother and sister. I guess I do wonder how
many
>times they came together in other forms than lovers. Perhaps father and
>daughter? Twins? Grandparent and grandchild? Even one of them 20 years
older
>than the other? Both men? Both women? All Wells said was whereever she is,
>there you (Clark) are also--or something like that.

Just in case one of the writers doesn't reply to this -

>From the script:
                Wherever his was, there was yours,
                never one without the other.  Two
                lovers destined to meet and fall in
                love over and over again throughout
                Time.  Truly a mythic bond.

In the episode as aired, the lines are identical except tht the last one
about the mythic bond was cut.  Perhaps they thought that was a little too
on the nose. ;)  Instead, Wells goes on to say: "Anyway, that's the good
news ..." <g>( which is a nice comic touch and effectively cuts the
sentiment) and explains what they have to do (or not do <g>) to circumvent
the curse.

Georgia
gwalde14@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:10:29 -0800
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: OK,
              Now It's Time For Everyone to Move on to the Next Big
Breakthrough
In-Reply-To:  <00c601bdabbf$0f4930c0$984948a6@oemcomputer>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>     Hi Everyone:   This message is more personal than fanfic-ish or  even
>Lois and Clark-ish.  I now have my very own, very personal computer at
>home to use for all kinds of nefarious deeds like sending e-mail to the
>list at  12:45 a.m. EST, while sitting in my ....  Well, never mind.   In
>addition, I also have this (to my mind) temporary e-mail account with
>Gateway  until I can figure out what internet service provider gets a
>chance to  facilitate the dissemination of my "brilliant" bull.  The
>address  is:   salymc@gateway.net   which leads one to the conclusion that
>a person  should never choose an on-line name at 2:00 a.m. in the morning
>after several  beers.  Be that as it may, I am now free to surf the
>internet's many fine  offerings with wild abandon.  Um ... just where does
>one download  "wild abandon" anyway?   Okay, Beth what's that secret nfic
>word  now?  I have one or two things to say about those  stories.<g>
>Sandy -- Sad that I'm a little too late for  L&C on-line chats, but very
>happy to be joining the 20th century just as  it's taking its bow.

What do you mean "A little too late"? There are still L&C online chats! Oh,
wait a minute, we don't talk much about L&C .... just witter away about
anything really ....

LEanne

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:46:48 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "Georgia E. Walden" <gwalde14@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model
In-Reply-To:  <m0yuaxZ-0003DSC@fwd03.btx.dtag.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:03 PM 7/10/98 +0200, you wrote:

>I think I have less problems with Lois' reaction to Clark now.

I'm glad you see this episode this way now, Nicky.  I agree 100% with the
explanations - NEVERENDING BATTLE is, in my opinion, one of the most
important episodes in the series.  I must say, though, that I was surprised
that you saw it in terms of a "power fight" or that you thought that Jimmy
would infer some kind of lesson in sexual politics from it.

Clark was very clear when Jimmy explained his difficulties with Perry. He
told Jimmy to "tell him how you feel."  So when Clark dealt with Lois (a
specific response to a specific situation)  Jimmy decided that he had to
deal with his own situation too, instead of letting his resentment fester.
I don't think that Jimmy was reading the conflict between Lois and Clark as
a man/woman thing at all - it was just two people who were having a
problem, just as he and Perry were having a problem, and both were resolved
by taking action, not by sitting back and whining about it.

>Unfortunately Jimmy wasn't there when this last conversation took place
and I'm
>still struggling with *his* point of view. In my story Jimmy takes Clark as
a
>role model, especially for his way to treat women. In the beginning he
doesn't
>understand Clark's relationship to the several women who come onto him at
all.

Naturally, you can write any story any way you want to ;) but there really
isn't all that much rationale *on-screen* for this interpretation of the
Clark/Jimmy relationship in first season.  This is fine with me - I was
always just a bit resentful of any screen time given to the secondary
characters then; we got so little Lois and Clark as it was, I hated to see
precious moments being spent on anyone else. ;)  When they did concentrate
on Jimmy's interactions with others, we saw him with Perry (mostly), with
Lois (tagging along on stories), or with Cat (based on his dealings with
her, I don't think he was paying much attention to Clark's attitudes toward
women.<g>)  Jimmy seemed to admire Superman in a rather juvenile way (he
thought he might use his x-ray vision to cheat at cards) and he and Clark
were newsroom buddies, but they related as equals, and rightfully so, since
Clark had a lot of growing up to do, too. Clark mentioned going to
ballgames with Jimmy in THAT OLD GANG OF MINE, and maybe they did, but I
really couldn't see it.  They spent more time showing Clark's big brother
attitude toward Jack in his few appearances than the CK/Jimmy friendship.
In second, third, and fourth season, it was still Perry who seemed to have
the most impact on him, but at least in these later shows, you have some
evidence that Jimmy cares what Clark thinks.

What I'm getting at in a roundabout way here is that building a story
around Clark's good influence on Jimmy is going to require a lot more than
the early episodes ever gave.  Clark does behave well in NEVERENDING
BATTLE, just as Lois does, and gives Jimmy the impetus to do something for
himself, but throughout the rest of first season, Jimmy could be forgiven
for not knowing exactly what lessons to take from any of his older but not
always wiser friends at the Planet.

Georgia
gwalde14@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 00:38:32 +1000
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Louise Kendall <jem@WEBONE.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: Help! Respect because of Godzilla?!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Nicole,

I never saw Clark's behaviour as 'bad' (although I may be mistaking your
meaning on this) but instead a rather creative way of standing up to Lois
and basically telling her that he would not put up with this sort of
behaviour.

He did not do to Lois what she did to him.  She basically betrayed his trust
deliberately and with forethought.  Clark had no idea she would do this and
she knew it.  There was no warning and no 'out'.  I probably won't explain
this very well but here goes.  If you think about it, what Clark did to Lois
was not a fait accompli.  If she had not been so obsessed about getting the
story on Superman, maybe she would have taken the time to really do her job
and investigate where the tipoff came from.  Something that, as a reporter,
she should have done right away.  If she had done that she might have saved
herself a lot of embarrassment - and given Clark time to 'fess up.  Clark
did not lie to her nor did he set her up with a face to face lie.  His
actions also allowed her the opportunity to ensure that no-one but she would
ever know she had been duped.  She could have gone on the wild goose chase,
gone home and changed and nobody would have known.  She did not allow the
same opportunity for him.

As to the premise that people respect you when you behave badly - I
disagree.  Clark was responding to Lois' behaviour.  He was basically saying
that he won't stand for that sort of behaviour from her.  He didn't bad
mouth her to her colleagues (he actually didn't need to, they all knew what
she had done, but that's neither here nor there), he didn't swear at her or
call her names or behave violently towards her in any way (which a lot of
people would have done and is what I call bad behaviour).

I think the lesson that he taught Lois is that while he may look and act
like a 'farmboy' he won't allow her or anyone to ride roughshod over him,
that there is a line that he won't allow anyone to cross, that he demands to
be treated with a certain level of respect.  And that's what he got out of
Lois.

I think that this is the lesson he taught Jimmy, that sometimes you have to
stand up for yourself and demand that others treat you with respect.  Let's
face it, a lot of people will do things simply because they can get away
with it - not because it's the right thing to do.  As for Jimmy's
'confrontation' with Perry - it was short and to the point.  After all, he
couldn't quite master the 'let's be reasonable and explain it to the Cheif'
approach so he tried something different.  And it worked.

The way I saw the whole "Godzilla" thing was that Clark never treated Lois
with disrespect.  He displayed his anger with her behaviour in such a way as
to drive his point home without ever once treating *her* with contempt.

Like I said, I probably didn't explain my feelings very well but I hope you
can figure out what I was trying to say.

Btw, you don't write too badly - native speaker or not. :):)

jem
(who thinks this is the longest post she has ever made)

-----Original Message-----
From: NKWolke <NKWolke@T-ONLINE.DE>
To: LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
<LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Date: Friday, 10 July 1998 4:29
Subject: Help! Respect because of Godzilla?!

Hi Folcs,
I'm facing a problem with a fanfiction I'm working on and I thought that
maybe
you guys could help me.

The story is mainly about Jimmy. He is sitting at an award ceremony and he's
so
nervous that he's trying to distract himself by looking back to the years
when he
first started working for the Daily Planet.

He remembers all the newsroom gossip (the title of the story is "Gossip has
it
that...) and this naturally leads him to the hottest gossip topic of all
years:
The love story of Lane and Kent.

The chapter I'm pasting below comes very early in the story. It is about the
episode where Lois stole Clark's story and he took revenge by sending her on
this
goose chase for Superman's spacecraft.

One of my several problems with this chapter is: I don't like Clark's
behavior
here very much. Of course it is understandable that he is mad and that he
want's
to show Lois that she can't treat him like a puppy dog. She owns him some
respect, but I don't hink that this silly trap is a very grown up way to get
respect.

And it gets even worse when it comes to the consequences of his revenge,
because
respect is exactly what he gets. Lois *really* respects him more after that
incident and I'm struggling now how to explain it. Why does she respect him
more?
Because he behaves as bad as she does? Because he has shown her what a "man"
he
is?

And to make my trouble really unbearable not only Lois is impressed, Jimmy
takes
Clark's "revenge" as a sign to stand up against Perry White. What is the
message
here? If somebody treats you bad, treat him (or her in this case) bad in
return
and then everybody will think you are a really brave person?

I tried to explain it not with the "actual treatment", but with Clark's
behaviour
after that episode, but I'm still not satisfied.

Maybe you guys have a solution. Maybe I see it wrong and you can tell me
what the
message really is?

BTW this story is totally unfinished and no proof reader has laid an eye on
it
yet, so the language is probably pretty bad. Please bear with me here
because I'm
not a native speaker.

take care
Nicole
AKA CKgroupie on IRC
NKWolke@t-online.de

****************************************************************************
**
"Gossip has it that..." (Excerpt)

****

Actually it was a story about Superman, that had brought the first big
change in
the relationship of Lois and Clark and it had also brought a big change in
Jimmy's life. It was only a few weeks after Clark had started working for
the
Planet. He had worked with Lois on the story about Space-station Prometheus
and
Perry was very satisfied with this story. Now Perry demanded more stories
about
the mysterious, flying man and assigned his whole team to it. Lois was
furious of
course, because *she* had been the one who wrote the first article about
Superman
and *she* wanted the rights for the Superman-story, but Perry only shrugged
his
shoulders when she complaint about it and said that Superman was a „too big
deal"
to let only one reporter work on a story about him. So Lois was very mad and
she
did something unforgivable. When she arrived too late for a scoop on
Superman
saving two suicides and found Clark had beat her there, she stole the story
and
wrote it in her own name.

Boy, had Clark been mad about that! Gossip on the other hand was delighted
of
course. That was *it*, that was the occasion that would open Clark's eyes
about
Lois and turn the crush into enmity! The staff members couldn't wait to see
a
fight between Mad Dog and the shy guy from Kansas. She would shred him into
pieces of course (poor boy) but to see Lois in action was always interesting
for
the greedy audience!

Jimmy remembered Clark's hurt expression when Lois told him bluntly that he
shouldn't have been so naive and trust her. Nobody should trust anybody
these
days and now he had learned his lesson.
„Is Lois always like this?" Clark had asked him and Jimmy, though a friend
of
Lois and always ready to defend her couldn't deny that the name „Mad Dog"
wasn't
so far fetched.

He had had his own trouble to this time. Perry White seemed to see him only
as
some kind of slave. He never gave him any chance to work at something
newspaper
related. He had known that he had to do the minor work when he took the job
and
he was ready to do that, but he had also hoped to get a chance to do some
newspaper-work like all the other research workers! The only man who seemed
to
notice his desperation was Clark Kent. He told him to go to Perry and to
talk
with him about it, but Jimmy was afraid to do this. Man, Perry White was the
Chief-editor of the biggest newspaper in the world! He couldn't just go to
him
and complain about his job, could he? Clark shrugged his shoulders: „If
you're
unhappy with your job and you think you could do better you have to stand up
and
tell him. It doesn't matter if he's the chief or just Mindy from research.
You
need a little more courage, Jimmy."

Jimmy thought about this a lot and even started one try to talk with the
chief,
but he couldn't go through with it. After all it was easy for Clark to tell
him
he should just go to Perry! *He* wasn't the one who had to face it! It was
always
easier to give good advice than to act them out!
But then Clark showed him that *he* had this kind of courage! He had been
still
mad about Lois stealing his story and he managed to teach her a lesson she
wouldn't forget soon. He not even got the next big Superman-story, he also
showed
Lois that it wasn't wise to get too biased with a story.
Lois had been a „mad dog" like never before. She was so obsessed with
Superman
that she forgot about everything else and every professional pride she had
to get
this story. So she stole Clark's story and used ideas from other coworkers
to
find Superman until one day a mysterious package was sent to her apartment.
Normally Lois would have been much too suspicious to just follow the advice
in
that message that lead her to the canalization of Metropolis, but Lois was
so
obsessed with her story that she blindly went into the silly trap Clark had
laid
out for her. Clark later admitted that he had been so sorry afterwards and
that
he even had tried to stop the package before Lois got it, but she hadn't
listen
to him, when he tried to tell her. So Lois literally crouched through the
mud of
Metropolis, searching for Superman's spaceship only to find a very silly
Godzilla-figure in red Briefs at the described location!

Gossip was excited like never before. Lois defended by a coworker! Never had
something like this happened to her! Who had thought that this Clark Kent
had it
in him?! Boy, now she would be mad! Now she would run ballistic! Now he had
the
worst enemy on this world! Watch out Clark Kent if Lois Lane hated you there
was
no silver lining in *your* future! And he could be so proud! He was the
first man
in the staff who managed to make Lois speechless! What would happen now?
What
would she do? How would she take revenge and how would he respond?

But then it turned out that they all had been wrong. Clark didn't revel in
the
feeling of his victory about the arrogance of Lois Lane. Nobody heard one
bad
word about her from him. His expression was as soft and gentle like it had
been
before when he looked at her and Lois on the other hand did the
unimaginable. She
not only forgave him, she even started to behave more friendly towards him.
Obviously he had earned her respect. Not for the way he had treated her when
he
had taken his revenge, but for the way he behaved afterwards. She realized
that
she had underestimated Clark Kent. This man was *not* a hack from Kansas. He
was
a good reporter and he was also a nice guy who didn’t want to be her enemy
but
who wasn't afraid of her either. She had only the choice to work against him
or
to work with him and to her own surprise she suddenly found it hard to take
the
first option.

****

Jimmy chuckled inwardly when he remembered how impressed he had been about
Clark
and how brave he had felt when he took the first opportunity to speak with
Perry
White. To his big surprise the chief not only didn't fire him, Jimmy
couldn't
help the feeling that Perry even had *wanted* him to stand up and express
his
feelings about the job. He didn't give him any stories to work on of course,
but
he suddenly gave him the opportunity to learn a lot about the work of an
journalist. After another year Jimmy could tell himself without exaggeration
the
best researcher in the city. Lois and Clark for example never wanted to work
with
anybody else!

After that first Superman-incident Perry White partnered Lois with Clark. At
first Lois protested of course, but only half heartily  because inside she
probably had figured out that Lane and Kent could really become a good team.
And
Perry had been right. They got nearly *every* important story in Metropolis.
Numerous editors from the other newspapers made them more than generous
offers
just to get these two in their own staff and they won award after award
during
the years. Had Lois been famous as a reporter, it was nothing against the
credits
she got after being partnered with Clark. Lane and Kent almost immediately
became
a synonym for high quality journalism.

****

to be continued :-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:43:31 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Lansbury 1 <Lansbury1@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The SoulMates Chronicles:  Sea Hawk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 7/10/98 6:36:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Larus2407@AOL.COM
writes:

<< Thanks for another SoulMates Chronicle. Without giving the plot away, I
did
 notice one typo in the very beginning. <g> <<Besides, this man does not
look
 harmless.">> I think you (Lolita) meant does look harmless. >>

I am glad you liked the story.  I went back and checked the passage which
includes
the above line.  Dona Marta De la Fuenta Vasquez/Martha is speaking......
"You are right, my daughter. Juan would offer his help and in his name I
will
do the same.  Besides, this man does not look harmless." (meaning Wells)

In the complete context of her statement the line is correct.

I am happy your read the story and if you have anymore questions please ask.

Annie Lansbury
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:45:25 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Carolyn Schnall <cschnall@MAIL.MED.CORNELL.EDU>
Subject:      Dean on AH again
Comments: To: deancainfans@onelist.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello Fellow FOLCs:  Just when I was feeling worn down by the irony of
watching Access Hollywood every weekday evening for weeks and weeks and
still mssing Dean on the weekend show (picture faithful Dean fan screaming
"WHAT??!!!!!")  I caught him on AH last night again.  It was a quickie
about well known stars like DiCaprio not getting cerain TV roles and how
Dean almost got Baywatch before he got L&C.  I have often wondered if he
might have gone out for Baywatch.  The guy who got Baywatch instead bears a
slight resemblance to Dean and it was implied that Dean was inexperienced
even though he was very strong and that it was a hard decision after Dean
was called back several times.

Carolyn
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:25:59 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Fanfic Review: Paradise Lost, etc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> Still in all, I did have questions and found myself not quite buying into
a   few developments.  For instance, when Rebecca was kidnapped 20 years
ago,  wouldn't you have expected the FBI to have gone over every nook and
cranny of the Sowerby farm and surrounding areas, possibly coming across
the toxic  waste that had already been dumped?,<SNIP>

>>Even as recently as 15 years ago, the FBI did not become involved in the
disappearance of children.  You may have seen the movie Adam, which showed
the true story of Adam Walsh's kidnapping (in 1981... or around this time),
and his parents received little effective help (and this was in a city,
when the child had disappeared in a public place).  In a small town, with a
very small police force, and virtually no reason for involvement of the
FBI, it doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't have found something that
they never knew to look for.<<

You may be right, but the only reason I mentioned the FBI is because the
authors did.  When Jonathan is telling Lois the story he says, "The local
police eventually brought in the FBI; they ran down a lot of false leads,
but never found the girl, or found out what happened to her, etc. etc...."

>  Furthermore, why, when confronted with Lois Lane, did Medlock explain
everything he had done:<

>>Okay... this always happens....<SNIP> It's classic, absolutely classic.
<<

I agree with you.  I just wondered why the authors didn't take a different
tack.

<  Not only that, at the end of the story, I felt it wrong of the Kents to
"strongly advise" her to contact her parents.  After all that she's been
through, I can see her harboring a lot of misgivings and anger --
especially knowing that her father was culpable.  I thought it better of
the Kents just to be supportive without pushing one way or the other.

>>The Kent's were classic for giving unconditional support, and their
opinon, in the same breath.  Remember them sending Clark back to Lois?
"So, I should just crawl back to her?", "No, Sweetheart, Fly back, it's
faster."  It would have been out of character for them to remain neutral
when they knew how much her parents had missed her, loved her, and wanted
to see her.<<

Clark is their son; Frannie/Rebecca is almost a stranger.  Furthermore, I
didn't get the impression that the Sowerbys were all that close to the
Kents.  Even if they were, it really isn't the Kent's business to dispense
unasked for advice to a young woman they don't know -- especially since
they also don't know the full extent of her father's involvement with this
whole business, nor what emotions she's been harboring all these years
about her abandonment -- which is all she knew about it before now.

>  Fifth, when Superman helps the EPA clean up the site by flying all the
>  barrels to the sun, isn't he, in effect, destroying evidence?

>>I think that the evidence could have been effectively documented and
still
allow him to protect the earth from it's effects.  He has thrown bombs and
such into the atmosphere quite regularly, and the criminal usually ends up
behind bars.  I don't think this was much of a problem.<<

True, but the bombs were *potential* damage.  The chemicals had already
done their dirty work.  Perhaps they could have been transported to a place
where the government stores dangerous substances.  I just think there's the
possibility of evidence which might help to trace where the chemicals came
from.  After all, the two villains are not the ultimate bad guys here; they
had to have a source for these chemicals -- a multinational, a Lex Luthor
type?

We'll learn more about this when Genevieve or Pat responds<g>.

************************

>Sandy -- Sad that I'm a little too late for  L&C on-line chats, but very
      happy to be joining the 20th century just as  it's taking its bow.<

>>>What do you mean "A little too late"? There are still L&C online chats!
Oh,
wait a minute, we don't talk much about L&C .... just witter away about
anything really ....
LEanne<<<

You mean you still participate, Leanne?  Well, *that* changes everything --
of course ; )  Actually, I'm having enough difficulties figuring out my
mail system, which I don't think I like at all.  The thought of figuring
out on-line chatting gives me headaches. Maybe someday -- if I ever get
comfortable enough with this thing in my bedroom -- that is, the computer,
I might give it a whirl.

Sandy
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:02:21 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 98-07-10 07:07:13 EDT, you write:

<< I don't want Jimmy to think that a realtionship is built on power-fights
>>

Then Jimmy would be laboring under a complete misconception, because a part
of
any relationship that is worth keeping is in fact about the occasional
'power
fight'.  You have to sometimes stand up for yourself so you don't lose
yourself  to 'the couple' or forfeit your voice in that relationship.
Probably
the absolute best scene of the series that dealt with this power-fight
struggle was the end scene to When Irish Eyes are Killing.  Lois loves Clark
so much, and it would have been easy for her  to just give in when Clark
wanted to get back with her, but Lois had to stand up for herself there or
she
would have found herself facing that same or a similar problem over and over
again with Clark.  If she didn't let Clark know right there that he didn't
have the right to run her life, then the next time it happened, it would
only
be that much harder for Lois to make her point.  When you fail to make your
point of view clear from the beginning,  then the ending can become Perry
and
Alice.

We saw their marriage crash and burn 3rd season, but the signs that they
didn't have the most rock solid of marriages had hints along the way.  Why
would Alice "have spies everywhere"?  Did she not trust Perry?  If so, had
he
given her reason not to trust him? Perry indirectly associates the phrase
"caged animal" to "marriage" in And the Answer is. Perry and Alice had gone
to
Larry Smiley's retreat from love and commitment and though Perry told Lois
the
retreat did wonders for their marriage, he told Jimmy that he was "on thin
ice" with Alice.  Perry was obviously resentful having to go to the symphony
(which he hates) but is going because Alice loves the symphony.  That would
even be touching in a way if it weren't so obvious that Perry was doing it
out
of fear (whether of confrontation or making the ice thinner).  In Just Say
Noah, what is the first thing Perry asks about when he becomes conscious?
Right, the paper, and Alice is an obvious second thought.  In Ultra Woman he
has Jimmy phone Alice instead of doing it himself and while that's a great
way
to postpone a confrontation, it won't avoid one.  The more he postpones, the
deeper Alice's resentment becomes.  It reaches a point where she feels he no
longer has a vested interest in the continuation of the marriage ,and so she
leaves him.

Jimmy's point of view of Lois and Clark's relationship might be humorously
skewed or entirely distorted.  Not to mention the recurring element that
exists throughout Lois and Clark's relationship -- Superman.  What would
Jimmy
make of Lois's long affiliation to the 'man of steel'?  What was his *real*
first thought when he saw the tabloid photos of Lois and Superman?  I don't
even have to ask what Jimmy thought when he saw Clark zipping his fly in
Super
Mann ;)  Anyway, it should be an interesting story, Nicky ;)

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:51:25 EST
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         goldengrove unleaving <kubitc@KENYON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model

<< Jimmy's point of view of Lois and Clark's relationship might be
humorously
skewed or entirely distorted.  Not to mention the recurring element that
exists throughout Lois and Clark's relationship -- Superman.  What would
Jimmy
make of Lois's long affiliation to the 'man of steel'?  What was his *real*
first thought when he saw the tabloid photos of Lois and Superman?  I don't
even have to ask what Jimmy thought when he saw Clark zipping his fly in
Super
Mann ;)  Anyway, it should be an interesting story, Nicky ;) >>

This is an interesting point. I've always wondered how Lois and Clark's
relationship would appear to various outsiders. I know Zoom's fanfic Cruise
Control did a great job at showing Scardino's possible reaction; since Clark
had been treating Lois poorly, especially from Scardino's POV, he was
surprised
that Lois would have *married* him. And the S5's The Cat in the Hat Comes
Back
did a good job with Cat and her reaction to Lois and Clark's marriage. But I
wonder about other characters... Lucy, Lois's psychic neighbor Star, Jack
(not
Olsen), Rachel Harris, Linda King, Molly, Dr. Friskin... I know some of
these
characters were brought back for Lois's baby shower in Sandy's episode of
S5,
but it would be interesting to get a more specific, individualized look at
Lois
and Clark's relationship from each of their points of view.

-Christy
 kubitc@kenyon.edu
 Attalanta on IRC
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:13:39 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "D. Baker" <dar-mn@WRITEME.COM>
Subject:      Still Waiting for help... Re: HELP ME PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!
Content-Type: text/plain
MIME-Version: 1.0
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    I'm still waiting for help re: my last msg to the list.  I would like to
get off this list ASAP, if not sooner.

DB

 ---- I wrote:
> HELP ME PLEASE!!!!!!
>
> I want to get off this list, but don't know how.
>
> Can someone please tell me how to unsubscribe to this list or post the
listserv msg that tells how to unsubscribe?  I don't know what name/nick I
used to subscribe with, so if I need to know that then I'd need to know how
to find that out, too.
>
> Thanks, in advance, for your help.
>
> DB
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------
Get free personalized email at http://four11.iname.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:38:09 -0700
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Vicki Krell <Vicki.Krell@ASU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain

Clark zipped his fly in Super Mann????? How did I miss that? Or was it
implied?? Dang!! <bg>

Vicki
Vicki.Krell@ASU.Edu <mailto:Vicki.Krell@ASU.Edu>

        I don't even have to ask what Jimmy thought when he saw Clark
zipping his fly in Super
        Mann ;)  Anyway, it should be an interesting story, Nicky ;)

        Zoomway@aol.com <mailto:Zoomway@aol.com>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:25:35 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "Gardners@htc.net" <gardners@HTC.NET>
Subject:      HHEEEELLLLPPPPP!!!!!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello all (Again),
        I tried to get off this list as I said but I am having problems. I
got =
a message that said "output of your job "gardners" and the message said =
I was unsubscribed but I have still been getting mail for about 3 to 4 =
days. Someone please *PRIVATELY* e-mail me (Farah?) and Help me. Goodbye =
*again*=20
                Brad Gardner
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:28:40 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-07-10 18:38:52 EDT, you write:

<< Clark zipped his fly in Super Mann????? How did I miss that? Or was it
 implied?? Dang!! <bg>
  >>

Yes, after the floor buffing scene is interrupted by Jimmy, Clark is trying
to
get back into the 'Clark' suit.  It's at the point where Clark moves up next
to Lois while Jimmy is standing at the door.  When the camera switches to a
back shot of Lois and Clark, don't look at Jimmy, watch Clark's movements ;)
Then look at Jimmy's face. *We* know that Clark was just zipping the
trousers
back over the Superman costume, but Jimmy could let his imagination run
wild,
and no doubt did<g>

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 09:48:14 +1000
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Jenny Stosser <jenerate@OZRAMP.NET.AU>
Subject:      Re: Lois and clark screensaver
In-Reply-To:  <oKo0eFAwBgp1IwYa@fastc.demon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

thanks for the advertisement angee!

As for the screen saver, i believe erin klingler was working on one, but
was having trouble finding a website with enough space to hold it or
something.

At 12:52 PM 10/07/98 +0100, Angee Chaudhry wrote:
>In message <7cdb4007.35a55b47@aol.com>, Ron Langman <RonL623507@AOL.COM>
>writes
>>Can anyone please let me know if they know of any Lois and Clark or
Superman
>>screensaver.  I remember a couple lof months ago, someone was going to put
a
>>flying superman cape screensaver up on their website.  What ever happened
to
>>that.
>>Thanks
>>Ronnie
>
>
>Hi Ronnie,
>
>I can't say for sure where to find it but I can point you in the right
>direction ..
>
>try Jenny Stossers website as you may find something there .. I haven't
>seen the screensaver personally but at least you will be one step
>closer.
>
>The website is:
>
> http://www.ozramp.net.au/~jenerate
>
>Good luck ..
>
>Angee
>--
>Angee Chaudhry
>
>
--
Jenny Stosser -*- jenerate@ozramp.net.au -*-This message is umop ap!sdn
 (Jenerator or Some1Else on IRC) -*- My ICQ# is 11477318
Photos of David (5) and Megan (2) on the Stosser Family HomePage:
http://geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/4583  Please sign our guestbook!
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:14:23 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model
In-Reply-To:  <eec527f2.35a6a3a9@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 07:28 PM 7/10/98 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-07-10 18:38:52 EDT, you write:
>
><< Clark zipped his fly in Super Mann????? How did I miss that? Or was it
> implied?? Dang!! <bg>
>  >>
>
>Yes, after the floor buffing scene is interrupted by Jimmy, Clark is
trying to
>get back into the 'Clark' suit.  It's at the point where Clark moves up
next
>to Lois while Jimmy is standing at the door.  When the camera switches to a
>back shot of Lois and Clark, don't look at Jimmy, watch Clark's movements
;)
>Then look at Jimmy's face. *We* know that Clark was just zipping the
trousers
>back over the Superman costume, but Jimmy could let his imagination run
wild,
>and no doubt did<g>
>
>Zoomway@aol.com
>

No, DO look at Jimmy, he looks down, notices Clark's open zipper,
Clark zips up after noticing Jimmy's gaze, Clark acts normal and
Jimmy looks at Lois, obviously checking her lipstick and/or blush ;-)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
| "What's done to children, they will do to society." - Karl Menninger|
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:04:33 -0500
Reply-To:     peabody@mcs.com
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Pat <peabody@MCS.COM>
Organization: Amarna House
Subject:      Re: Fanfic Review: Paradise Lost
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi FoLCs,

It's Friday evening, and I at last have a few free moments to respond to
Sandy's very kind review of "Paradise Lost"

Sandra McDermin wrote:
>
> "Paradise Lost" was written by Genevieve and Pat as episode 19 of the TUFS
> virtual fifth season.  I had read it some weeks ago and promised the
> authors I would post my thoughts (and perhaps stimulate some conversation)
> but I got caught up with other things (like visits from Chicagoans<g>).

The Chicagoans enjoyed their visit very much, thank you :)

<snipped>

> As I remembered from my last read through, I was immediately struck by
some
> general similarities in theme and even little asides to my own virtual
> episode, which, by coincidence, was also episode 19.  I think -- though
> this might horrify Genevieve and Pat -- that we've rubbed off on each
other
> since we've worked so closely on other stories<g>.  For instance, both
> stories had as a sub-theme the issue of money, both used the imagery of
the
> sun, both made a joke of the Titanic film as well as junk food such as
Ding
> Dongs and Ho Hos....  The psychic friends network has nothing on us!

It must have been at the subconscious level; I'd made the Titanic joke
because
I was hearing so much about the film (at the time I wrote the story,
last
Spring) and thought it would be a very "topical" bit of humor.

<snipped Sandy's praise re: our seamless blending of A & B plots>

> Still in all, I did have questions and found myself not quite buying into
a
> few developments.  For instance, when Rebecca was kidnapped 20 years ago,
> wouldn't you have expected the FBI to have gone over every nook and cranny
> of the Sowerby farm and surrounding areas, possibly coming across the
toxic
> waste that had already been dumped?  Not only that, I could also see where
> the parents might have come under some sort of suspicion and, so, it would
> not be unusual to investigate any business or other dealings that they had
> had -- including deals that had gone sour.

Then Crystal added:

> Even as recently as 15 years ago, the FBI did not become involved in the
> disappearance of children.  You may have seen the movie Adam, which showed
the
> true story of Adam Walsh's kidnapping (in 1981... or around this time),
and
> his parents received little effective help (and this was in a city, when
the
> child had disappeared in a public place).  In a small town, with a very
small
> police force, and virtually no reason for involvement of the FBI, it
doesn't
> surprise me that they wouldn't have found something that they never knew
to
> look for.

Having had some very limited experience with FBI agents, (they used to
borrow
books from an accounting library that I managed) I feel fairly
comfortable
in saying that they're not all Scully and Mulder ;)  The tireless,
intuitive,
driven investigator protrayed on tv, and in films and popular fiction,
doesn't always exist in real life.

Also, at the point when Rebecca disappeared, most of the "dumping"
on the Sowerby farm consisted of experimental chemicals.  Since it
wasn't
anything that the agents (or just about anyone else) had any experience
with,
they probably assumed that it was some new type of fertilizer, if they
noticed
it at all.  As for the agents not finding the child, I didn't see that
as
terribly unbelievable.  Even with full cooperation from everyone
involved,
I suspect that crimes are solved more often by an "anonymous tip" than
by
careful investigation.  Also, given the situation here:  Mr. Sowerby
being
involved in a possibly illegal dumping scheme, *and* Sowerby also
knowing that the
kidnappers might harm Rebecca if they discover he told their whole story
to the
FBI agents, Sowerby might have been reluctant to give the investigators
the
full information they needed to solve the crime.  It would be a terrible
position for a parent to be in:  if he doesn't cooperate with the
agents,
he may never see his child again, but if he does cooperate, and the
kidnappers
find out that he "squealed" *before* the FBI finds the kidnappers, the
kidnappers might retailiate by killing the child.

>
> Secondly, why were the perpetrators still hanging around?  I got the
> impression, at the beginning of the story, that they were making their
last
> visit to the Sowerby farm.  Shouldn't they have been long gone?  No one
> would have been able to trace them as far as I could see (more on that
> later).

The perps were still running a lucrative dumping business, and since
the farm was abandoned, they felt pretty safe.  Once they discoverd that
some effects of the chemicals were starting to show up in other areas of
the county, (after 20 or so years of dumping)they decided it might be a
good idea to leave town.

> Shouldn't they have covered up the hole where they dumped the
> toxic waste?  Furthermore, why, when confronted with Lois Lane, did
Medlock
> explain everything he had done:

Uhh...tradition?

>
> >>Suddenly it all made sense to Lois.  "You kidnapped Rebecca Sowerby."
>
> Medlock nodded.  "Twenty years ago, her father leased us this land.  When
> he found out what we were doing, he threatened to go to the police.  We
> couldn't have that, so we kidnapped his daughter. We met him later.... <<
> etc.
>
> I know that this type of thing often happens in mystery/suspense stories,
> but I always thought that there should be another way of getting to the
> truth without the bad guy stupidly and unnecessarily confessing to
> everything.  And, of course, they always do this while waving a gun.
> ("Hey, Mr.  Villain!  Just shoot them and be done with it!")

C'mon, audiences *love* cliches; <g> just look at the last season of
L&C.  (I *know* that I'm going get into trouble, big time, for that
last comment!)

>
> Thirdly, Lois' interest in the Sowerby farm seemed above and beyond.  I
> know that she supposedly has a nose for news, but she seemed almost
> obsessed to the point of taking pictures and doing library research
> (without Jimmy!) for no apparent reason.  Of course this is a very
> important plot development, but I would have liked a more practical, Lois
> Lane reason for her interest in an old abandoned farm in Smallville.

There's something fascinating about an abandoned house, particularly one
that still holds some vestiges of the previous occupants (furniture,
wallpaper, etc.)  Besides, Lois wasn't really that thrilled with
country life--it was probably an intellectual exercise for her.
>
> Fourth, why was Frannie aka Rebecca Sowerby in Smallville?  I don't recall
> her explaining this.

We explained it near the end of the story; Rebecca had graduated from
library school (yes, that's really what it's called) recently, and had
answered an ad advertising a job in Smallville.  The Kents point out
to her that, at least subconsciously, she wanted to return to her
family.
(There are less than 40 library schools in the U.S., so it's not
unusual for their placement offices to post ads for out of state jobs)

> I was willing to suspend all disbelief, but not when
> she proceeded to rattle off the names of her kidnappers.  She was a
> traumatized 4 year old when snatched.  I can't see how she could have
> remembered them so readily.  (Of course, this would help in
identification.
> Lucky she was there.)

I'll let Genevieve answer that one ;)

> Not only that, at the end of the story, I felt it wrong of the Kents to
> "strongly advise" her to contact her parents.  After all that she's been
> through, I can see her harboring a lot of misgivings and anger --
> especially knowing that her father was culpable.  I thought it better of
> the Kents just to be supportive without pushing one way or the other.

Crystal responded:

> The Kent's were classic for giving unconditional support, and their
opinon, in
> the same breath.  Remember them sending Clark back to Lois?  "So, I should
> just crawl back to her?", "No, Sweetheart, Fly back, it's faster."  It
would
> have been out of character for them to remain neutral when they knew how
much
> her parents had missed her, loved her, and wanted to see her.

Also, I think that people who live in small towns are much more likely
to offer advice.  That probably stems from knowing your neighbors pretty
well.
And while Frannie didn't exactly solicit their advice, I like to think
that she
was hoping they'd offer it.  Maybe that's why she was hanging around at
the
Kents' after Superman rescued her.

> Fifth, when Superman helps the EPA clean up the site by flying all the
> barrels to the sun, isn't he, in effect, destroying evidence?

I'm assuming that the EPA kept sufficient samples of the chemicals to
use in prosecuting the polluters.

>
> Other minor points (not necessarily A plot):
>
> 1) At one point, when a storm occurs and the lights go out in Smallville,
> you write:
>
> >>Superman wouldn't be putting in an appearance to repair the power lines
> anytime soon, because the storm would most likely knock them out again.
> Besides, who was he to deny the Small County Power Company the opportunity
> to test their disaster plan?  He'd involve himself only if the plan failed
> or the power company found itself overwhelmed by outages.<<
>
> I thought you should have said here that Superman would not be involving
> himself at all.  Considering all of the crime in Metropolis and crime and
> disasters everywhere else in the world, why *would* Superman help Small
> County with a power outage?

I wasn't going to mention Superman at all in that section, until it
occurred
to me that some of our readers might likely be asking, "Why doesn't
Superman
just reconnect the electrical power instead of lighting the fireplace?"
That
seemed to call for an explanation. But you're absolutely right--Superman
not showing up in Smallville at that same time as L&C is a much better
reason for his non-interference.

That seems mighty suspicious in light of the
> fact that Clark just happens to be there too.  Of course, Superman does
> show up to rescue Lois and help the EPA but I am assuming that, by that
> time, L&C have already involved him in their investigations -- so it seems
> much more plausible.
>
> 2) The Kent farm:  I wonder about the concluding developments here.  Would
> it really only take one to two years for the chemicals to disappear from
> the soil?  Even so, wouldn't Jonathan have to jump through a lot of hoops
> to get back in the market?  Wouldn't he have a difficult time finding
> buyers later considering that the poisoning of the area soil was big news?

Uhmmm...I think I'll leave this one for Genevieve, too.

> Little Observations:
>
> I must admit to chuckling one or two times upon seeing certain references.
> For instance, the description of the airplane as a "tin can with wings"
> that the "passengers would have less chance of surviving a disaster [in]
> than the passengers on the Titanic."   Or Clark's comment: "the farm is
> worth it to me.  I may have moved on, but I always come back.  It's not
the
> red earth of Tara, but it *is* where I draw my strength.  The yellow sun
> may recharge me, but my roots are here in Kansas,..."  These are
definitely
> Pat-isms, right?

LOL, Sandy, I think you know us too well!  All of these are indeed
"Pat-isms"
(I think I like that term)  Genevieve wrote the section about strength,
and
roots and recharging, which I liked very much.  After I'd was read it
over,
I sent her an e-mail, suggesting that Clark was sounding like Scarlett
O'Hara talking about "the red earth of Tara." That's how the phrase
ended up in the story.

> (I can't identify Genevieve so easily, except when Lois
> talks about getting rid of her doctor<g>.)
>
> I also laughed at Clark's response to Lois when she asked if he was
> "offering to show a city girl a Kansas good time."  Pretty funny.

Thank you very much!  Not quite as sophisticated as some of the double-
entendre dialog in season one, but I was kind of proud of that line  :)

> Finally -- despite what I enumerated above -- I take my hat off to you
guys
> for trying to build a complicated, interesting A plot.  I was never bored
> by it and the fact that I analyzed it so closely meant that I was very
> engaged in it.  As I said, this is downright difficult to do, and I
> remember sweating every conceiveable glitch in the A plots I've tried to
> come up with:  "If the villain did this, then Superman could do that ....
> So, he *can't* do that.  etc. etc.

"A" plots are the bane of L&C fanfic writers.  I have a wonderful "B"
plot scene playing out in my mind right now, but I'm having a tough
time coming up with an A plot to work it into.

> Good work guys -- especially the writing.  It really flowed.

Thank you both, Sandy and Crystal, for all of your kind words!  Nothing
makes a writer happier than hearing that someone enjoyed and
appreciated their work.

Pat
(who, like Lois, doesn't need any
encouragement to argue with a doctor :)

P.S.: Congratualtions, Sandy, on getting that computer running and
online
so quickly!

--
peabody@mcs.com
pattijean@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:25:33 -0800
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      OFFTOPIC: Keep "The Big Valley" on the air! (and other Fam
Chan
              shows)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

hello all,

Crossposted from LOISCLA ... I know this is off topic, so please, all
responses to this should come to me, volterra@sd.znet.com ....

The Fox Family Channel (purchased about 6 months ago by Fox, I think) is
scrapping it's mainly western programming to replace it with a stack of old
sitcoms and Spice Girls concerts rumoured to "bring the family together".
The new programming goes into effect August 15th so we don't have much time.

Well, this takes off an old favourite Western of mine (and in fact, the
only western I have *ever* taken an interest in) called "The Big Valley"
which airs 6 days a week on the Family Channel.

Fellow fans have started a writing campaign, and if you're at all
interested, then you might want to head on over to
http://members.aol.com/lmlbcr/BVHome.html
to find out how and who you can protest to. And if you're saving another
favourite show on the Fam Chan -- remember who told you about it and put in
a good word for "The Big Valley" *grin*

Leanne

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 01:35:28 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Pam Jernigan <jernigan@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Re: The SoulMates Chronicles:  Sea Hawk
Comments: To: Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

>>  Dona Marta De la Fuenta Vasquez/Martha is speaking......
"You are right, my daughter. Juan would offer his help and in his name I
will
do the same.  Besides, this man does not look harmless." (meaning Wells)

In the complete context of her statement the line is correct. <<

Annie, I don't mean to seem dim, but that doesn't make any sense to
me... Okay, I understand that she's being brave & would offer help even a=
t
risk to herself (at least that's my guess).  But then the phrasing is odd=
=2E =

The "besides" clause ought to argue against the main phrase, or at least
offer a parallel argument:  "I shouldn't eat this cake, but I've worked o=
ut
today, so I've earned it.  Besides, it's low-fat icing."  (The more I thi=
nk
about this, the more weird the word "besides" is starting to sound to me
<g>)  (I'm confusing myself now, so I'll stop)

Well, it's not the way I would have written it, but then, I didn't write
it, did I? <g>  =

(Reminder to all: The Sea Hawk is available on my website, along with a
very cool poster for it, designed by Zoomway!)

PJ

!^NavFont02F0351000FMGJHGE1MGE3HJ52B360
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 02:30:28 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: last time  (was Re: "The Chicken and Egg Debate"
In-Reply-To:  <9df3fe5d.35a480e3@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 04:35 AM 7/9/98 -0400, Zoomway wrote:
>From a 1st season discussion...

>And what's
>with that mean-spirited comment about her not putting on a robe unless it's
>lined with lead? He made it sound like he x-rays her when it suits him for
>some cheap thrill.  You know, on this series it's almost as impossible to
love
>Lois as it is to hate Clark, but this episode brought me perilously close
to
>hating him."
>

When you read it, it certainly sounds mean-spirited, but in the episode it
was played more matter-of-fact by both Superman/Dean and Lois/Teri. There
wasn't the same tone as in Resurrection, Clark says "It must've been some
chat for you to need a shower." That was clearly implying that Lois and
Scardino had done more than chat.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
| "What's done to children, they will do to society." - Karl Menninger|
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 05:39:10 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: last time  (was Re: "The Chicken and Egg Debate"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-07-11 02:28:26 EDT, you write:

<< When you read it, it certainly sounds mean-spirited, but in the episode
it
 was played more matter-of-fact by both Superman/Dean and Lois/Teri. There
 wasn't the same tone as in Resurrection, Clark says "It must've been some
 chat for you to need a shower." That was clearly implying that Lois and
 Scardino had done more than chat. >>

That's because Dean was a better actor by then ... mwa haha ... sorry, I
couldn't resist<g>  Truthfully, that's how I felt back when Barbarians at
the
Planet first aired. Time has healed a lot of wounds and wounded most of the
heels (ABC is like an anvil in the ratings ocean ;)  Just seeing Lois and
Clark grow up and grow together softened a lot of old bad spots.  It brought
up vividly how much like kids they were back then, lashing out
inappropriately
when they were hurt, using backhanded shows of affection lest they be caught
displaying genuine adult feelings and chanting banter that most of us
outgrew
in grade school.  They were both novices when it came to a healthy adult
relationship.  They were innocent, but the most charming thing about Lois
and
Clark is that they remained innocent, even long after they consumated their
love for each other.  Their ability to make each kiss as fresh and as deeply
felt as the first, their ability to make their passion hungry but never
selfish, and to make their exile world together seem enviable rather than
forlorn; granted them that uncorruptable innocence.  So while they may have
hurt each other along the way, especially in the beginning, they somehow
found
absolution ;)

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:26:23 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Norman Mayes <Budmayes@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: HHEEEELLLLPPPPP!!!!!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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There is a collection of list serv info at
ftp://ftp.aol.com/pub/mailing-lists/
you can look up this mailing list there for subscribing or unsubscribing
info
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:29:18 +0200
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         NKWolke <NKWolke@T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Hi Folcs,
oh, you give me a lot to think about with my story here :-) That's great!
But it
also shows that I have a lot of work to do <g>

Georgia wrote:
>> I agree 100% with the explanations - NEVERENDING BATTLE is, in my
opinion, one
of the most important episodes in the series.  I must say, though, that I
was
surprised that you saw it in terms of a "power fight" or that you thought
that
Jimmy would infer some kind of lesson in sexual politics from it.<<

I agree that NB is a very important episode in the relationship of
Lois&Clark.
That's why I thought I have to use it in my story even if it would be easier
for
me to just ignore it. I must admit, I never had a problem with the episode
until
I started to write from Jimmy's point of view. Then I suddenly found Lois
reaction hard to explain without letting either her being weak or Clark
being
childish. I found it difficult to give them *both* credit. But I think I'm
going
to follow Zoom's lead here. Jimmy shall admire Clark for being brave enough
to
face "Mad Dog" and show her that he's not doormat and he shall admire Lois
for
showing so much style as to face the whole newsroom and go to Clark and
gongratulate him.

Zoomway answered to my sentence: <<<< I don't want Jimmy to think that a
relationship is built on power-fights >>>>

>>Then Jimmy would be laboring under a complete misconception, because a
part of
any relationship that is worth keeping is in fact about the occasional
'power
fight'.  You have to sometimes stand up for yourself so you don't lose
yourself  to 'the couple' or forfeit your voice in that relationship. <<

I agree with you here 100%. Of course you have to stand up and voice sour
own
thoughts, otherwise it wouldn't be a realtionship but a tyranny. What I
meant
with 'power fights' is something different though. I think it is typical for
so
many relationships that they're in a constant war about who has *more* power
than
the other. And I think Lois and Clark's relationship is a wonderful
exception. If
 I look around I'm amazed to hear my friends talking about their marriages
and it
sounds exactly like Kindergarden-kids talking about who has more toys.
"Robbie
has got two new trousers this months for more than 200 DM, now I think it's
my
turn." "Frederic got a new jacket for work, now *I* want something new, too"
"If Guido is going to this meeting with his friends on sucday, *I* must
have saturday off (even if I don't know what to do then)" They're so afraid
that
the other part of the couple could have a tiny little bit more space than
themselves and that although they really love each other! For me it would be
logical to think about how to give my partner as much as I can and if both
think
this way, you'll have a great realtionship. But it seems like this is not
how it
works in most marriages.

The worst form of 'power fight' is that kind where one member of the couple
is
proud about being able to 'change' their spouses. "He would do *anything*
for
me." in my eyes is a very dangerous sentence. My favorite example is the
motor-bike obession of my hubby and my own Lois&Clark-obsession. So many
people
shake their head about us. Klaus' friends tell him that *they* wouldn't
*allow*
their wifes to spend so much money on this "weird hobby". On the other hand
my
friends know that I don't like him to drive motor-bikes, because it is so
dangerous. So they tell me to *forbid* him driving them. But I also know
that he
likes it so much and that *I* like my Lois&Clark hobby so much. Who would I
be to
'forbid' my hubby something he loves? I love him the way he is and I expect
him
to love me the way I am. I wouldn't love him more if he quit driving
Motor-bikes.
And I'm absolutely sure he would do it, if I asked him to, but I would have
a bad
conscious for the rest of my life, because I made him doing something he
didn't
want to do. But I'm afraid a lot of people would see it as a "triumph".

With Lois&Clark I'm so happy, because in their relationship both members of
the
couple first want to see the other part happy and then think about their own
happiness. Of course this doesn't work all the time either. Sometimes
wanting the
other's happiness is as limiting as the other way round, as Clark has to
learn in
early third season. But at least his motives are more noble. :-) But both
don't
think that *they* become more by getting the other to become less. That's
what I
would call a power fight.

Georgia wrote:
>>Naturally, you can write any story any way you want to ;) but there really
isn't all that much rationale *on-screen* for this interpretation of the
Clark/Jimmy relationship in first season.  This is fine with me - I was
always just a bit resentful of any screen time given to the secondary
characters then; we got so little Lois and Clark as it was, I hated to see
precious moments being spent on anyone else. ;) <<

It's true, there isn't very much "on-screen-evidence" for a Jimmy/Clark
frienship
and that's exactly the reason why I want to write the story. As you know
(and you
know the exception, too ;-)) I'm a firm believer in continuity. I like
reading
other kind of stories, too, but I prefer writing stories that don't change
facts
we have been given during the series.  So I have to search for 'black holes'
and
I think I found one in Jimmy :-)

We know that there *is* a friendship, it is mentioned a few times during the
series, but we never see them socialise outside the Planet and when we see
them at work together they don't talk too much about their private life,
too.
Only later in the series we get glimpses of a friendship-like behaviour
between
Clark and Jimmy. I think about Jimmy's reaction when this
horrible-voiced-woman
Victoria appeared at the Planet, for example or when Clark hit Jimmy with
this
elastic (? is that the right term?) in THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY. That was
exactly
this silly kind of behaviour you'd expect between buddies. And one of my
favorite
scenes regarding my story is the scene in DON'T TUG ON SUPERMAN'S CAPE where
Clark asks him "What do you think?" about proposing to Lois. Of course,
Jimmy
just sees the ring by accident, but IMO Clark's behaviour shows that he
talks to
a friend here, not just a colleague.

Nicole
AKA CKgroupie on IRC
NKWolke@t-online.de
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:00:04 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: last time  (was Re: "The Chicken and Egg Debate"
In-Reply-To:  <3868f0ae.35a732bf@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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At 05:39 AM 7/11/98 -0400, you wrote:

>
>
>That's because Dean was a better actor by then ... mwa haha ... sorry, I
>couldn't resist<g>

I happen to believe that the way in which Clark/Superman was played by Dean
in the early episodes was on purpose and not because of a lack of ability
and/or experience. After all Clark/Superman was supposed to be inexperienced
in the early episodes, right? Superman had only been around for a short
while,
and Clark Kent had been in the outback, avoiding interaction with people.

Gary
who appreciates both Dean & Teri
for their acting talents even
though Dean would've had a longer
and more lucrative career had he
not injured his knee and stayed in
football.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
| "What's done to children, they will do to society." - Karl Menninger|
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:55:15 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Cristin J Whitley <ckandll4ever@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Zippers

>Yes, after the floor buffing scene is interrupted by Jimmy, Clark is
>trying to
>get back into the 'Clark' suit.  It's at the point where Clark moves
>up next
>to Lois while Jimmy is standing at the door.  When the camera switches
>to a
>back shot of Lois and Clark, don't look at Jimmy, watch Clark's
>movements ;)
>Then look at Jimmy's face. *We* know that Clark was just zipping the
>trousers
>back over the Superman costume, but Jimmy could let his imagination
>run wild,
>and no doubt did<g>
>
>Zoomway@aol.com
>

Ah, but also notice Lois was tucking her blouse back in.... Perhaps,
Jimmy's imagination wasn't the only thing "running wild"!!!

***Cristin Whitley :o)***CKandLL4ever@Juno.com***
SUPERfan on IRC
Join my Dean Cain mailing list at:
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/deancainfans
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:43:43 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Zippers
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In a message dated 98-07-11 14:34:43 EDT, you write:

<< Ah, but also notice Lois was tucking her blouse back in.... Perhaps,
 Jimmy's imagination wasn't the only thing "running wild"!!! >>

Her blouse is not only untucked but it is unbuttoned to about the (excuse
the
expression ;) breast bone<g> Before she and Clark tumble to the floor,
Lois's
blouse is tucked in and buttoned up to her neck ;)  Gotta love Clark's 'very
busy, very fast, very strong...hands' ;)

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:12:09 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         No Name Available <Larus2407@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: last time  (was Re: "The Chicken and Egg Debate"
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In a message dated 98-07-11 12:58:08 EDT, gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU writes:

<< I happen to believe that the way in which Clark/Superman was played by
Dean
 in the early episodes was on purpose and not because of a lack of ability
 and/or experience. After all Clark/Superman was supposed to be
inexperienced
 in the early episodes, right? Superman had only been around for a short
while,
 and Clark Kent had been in the outback, avoiding interaction with people.
>>

YOu know, it wasn't until much later in the series when I went back to look
at
the early eps, that I, too, came to the same conclusion as Gary. Perhaps his
relative inexperience just happened to work out well with Superman's
inexperience--or he made it work well. ;)

--Laurie
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:37:51 EST
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         goldengrove unleaving <kubitc@KENYON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Zippers

<< Her blouse is not only untucked but it is unbuttoned to about the (excuse
the expression ;) breast bone<g> Before she and Clark tumble to the floor,
Lois's blouse is tucked in and buttoned up to her neck ;)  Gotta love
Clark's
'very busy, very fast, very strong...hands' ;) >>

I've always wondered why Clark didn't use his super-speed in this scene. He
begins the scene dressed as Superman, and only changes into Clark after
Jimmy
knocks on the door. The Clark clothes he changes into are unzipped &
rumpled.
Why not change into clothes that are zipped & unrumpled? He could have used
his
super-speed to make himself, if not Lois as well, more presentable before
letting Jimmy in.

-Christy
 kubitc@kenyon.edu
 Attalanta on IRC
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:47:23 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Crystal Wimmer <JCWimmer@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Zippers
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In a message dated 7/11/98 1:39:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
kubitc@KENYON.EDU
writes:

>
>  I've always wondered why Clark didn't use his super-speed in this scene.
He
>  begins the scene dressed as Superman, and only changes into Clark after
> Jimmy
>  knocks on the door. The Clark clothes he changes into are unzipped &
rumpled.
>
>  Why not change into clothes that are zipped & unrumpled? He could have
used
> his
>  super-speed to make himself, if not Lois as well, more presentable before
>  letting Jimmy in.
>

I always figured this was a clue to how frazzled he really was, both by the
realization of how easily Lois could have been killed, and their VERY
physical
acknowledgment of that fact afterwards.  Thank goodness he had the presence
of
mind to dress himself as Clark, otherwise there really would have been some
questions to answer <bg>.

Crystal
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:34:26 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Laurie Stroh <LStroh1856@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model
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In a message dated 98-07-11 07:31:51 EDT, you write:

<< or when Clark hit Jimmy with this
 elastic (? is that the right term?) in THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY. >>

I think you mean rubber band...but I knew what you meant!

Laurie
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:56:13 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: last time  (was Re: "The Chicken and Egg Debate"
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 98-07-11 16:12:42 EDT, you write:

<< YOu know, it wasn't until much later in the series when I went back to
look
at
 the early eps, that I, too, came to the same conclusion as Gary. Perhaps
his
 relative inexperience just happened to work out well with Superman's
 inexperience--or he made it work well. ;) >>

Oh gee, me too, and Ultra Woman wasn't showing fear, it was just ... extreme
modesty... harhar<g>

Zoomway@aol.com (still chuckling ;)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:34:21 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         salymc <salymc@GATEWAY.NET>
Subject:      3rd Party Perspectives:  Was Godzilla, etc.
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-----Original Message-----
From: goldengrove unleaving <kubitc@KENYON.EDU>

><< Jimmy's point of view of Lois and Clark's relationship might be
humorously skewed or entirely distorted.  Not to mention the recurring
element that exists throughout Lois and Clark's relationship -- Superman.
What would Jimmy make of Lois's long affiliation to the 'man of steel'?
What was his *real* first thought when he saw the tabloid photos of Lois and
Superman?  I don't even have to ask what Jimmy thought when he saw Clark
zipping his fly in Super Mann ;)  Anyway, it should be an interesting story,
Nicky ;) >>

>This is an interesting point. I've always wondered how Lois and Clark's
relationship would appear to various outsiders. I know Zoom's fanfic Cruise
Control did a great job at showing Scardino's possible reaction; since Clark
had been treating Lois poorly, especially from Scardino's POV, he was
surprised that Lois would have *married* him. And the S5's The Cat in the
Hat Comes Back did a good job with Cat and her reaction to Lois and Clark's
marriage. But I wonder about other characters... Lucy, Lois's psychic
neighbor Star, Jack (not
>Olsen), Rachel Harris, Linda King, Molly, Dr. Friskin... I know some of
these characters were brought back for Lois's baby shower in Sandy's episode
of S5, but it would be interesting to get a more specific, individualized
look at Lois and Clark's relationship from each of their points of view.

>-Christy
> kubitc@kenyon.edu
> Attalanta on IRC<

No, despite the title of the message, this isn't about Godzilla's
perspective on Lois and Clark. (Might have helped the movie though.)  And my
Season 5 episode never really dealt with the issue of 3rd party
perspectives.  I just threw everything but the kitchen sink into that baby
shower scene, possibly to prove the point that Lois Lane did, indeed, have
"friends" -- even if they weren't the closest of confidants.  But, more
likely I did it, because I didn't want to get an e-mail from anyone asking
me why I didn't have so and so at the shower....  Self-protection is the
watchword here.

Anyhow, my real purpose is to bring up a very funny, cute fanfic that does
give us a slightly skewed, unusual take on a 3rd party perspective of Lois
and Clark.  And, there's even a revelation!  That is Melissa Dore's "A Cat's
Life".  When I first read it, quite a long time ago, I was really charmed.
It does a great job of looking at the world through a cat's eyes,
specifically Lois' cat, Elroy.  I immediately took to it having two
behemoths of my own -- one that's a 20 pounder.

It's not a long story, so I don't want to recite all the lines.  However, a
few of the ones I liked were:

>>*RING*

Huh? What? That's the barrier bell! Food or out, food or out... Out!<<

The barrier bell!  Very inventive.  That's exactly the impression I have of
my cats, except food always wins out.

>>"Careful, Clark, he doesn't like being picked up by the belly, he might...
Clark, are you all right! Bad Elroy! Bad!"

Yeeouch! He's tougher than he looks! I almost lost a claw on that one. Come
to think of it, he smells different. What does he smell of? Oh no! He smells
like that big blue bird that keeps landing in here. Why can't Mom have some
nice *normal* smelling friends?<<

That big blue bird!  Classic.  Of course, a cat would see Superman as a big
blue bird, and he suspects some connection to Lois' visitor, Clark.  Hmmm.

>>What? The big blue bird! He's picking me up! No! No ground! I want down!

"OK, Elroy, I've got you. You're not going to fall, see?"

Right. Sure. The floor is a long, long way down. And.. ohh, nice scratching.
Very nice. Hey! I'm back in the living room! I *was* right! You *are* the
big blue bird.<<

Uh oh, someone else knows the big secret ... and before Lois, too.<g>

As you can can kinda guess, this is a very sweet vignette.  Really liked it
and would encourage others to read the whole thing if you haven't.  And,
since I have to run off now to the vet to buy a busload of diet food for
these furballs living with me, it leaped to my mind as a neat example of
another being's perspective on L&C.  I agree that's it fun to read these
types of stories.  In fact, a story I'm writing now could sort of fit into
that category.

By the way, I've never read Cruise Control.  Isn't it in the archive?

Sandy -- via McDermin Manor
salymc@gateway.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:16:06 EST
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         goldengrove unleaving <kubitc@KENYON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: 3rd Party Perspectives:  Was Godzilla, etc.

<<<< I know Zoom's fanfic Cruise Control did a great job at showing
Scardino's
possible reaction; since Clark had been treating Lois poorly, especially
from
Scardino's POV, he was surprised that Lois would have *married* him. >>>>

< By the way, I've never read Cruise Control.  Isn't it in the archive? >

Yup. Here's the archive's "advertisement" for it: "Why are the married Lois
and
Clark going on a singles' cruise? Trouble in paradise? No (okay, there's
always
a little friction), just hot on the trail of a killer... with a little time
for
romance, too. Guest appearances by Ralph and everyone's favorite DEA agent."
And the story isn't told from Scardino's POV (I wanted to clarify that in
case
you thought it would be), it just includes his reaction to a married L&C.

<<<< I know some of these characters were brought back for Lois's baby
shower
in Sandy's episode of S5, but it would be interesting to get a more
specific,
individualized look at Lois and Clark's relationship from each of their
points
of view. >>>>

< And my Season 5 episode never really dealt with the issue of 3rd party
perspectives.  I just threw everything but the kitchen sink into that baby
shower scene, possibly to prove the point that Lois Lane did, indeed, have
"friends" -- even if they weren't the closest of confidants.  But, more
likely
I did it, because I didn't want to get an e-mail from anyone asking me why I
didn't have so and so at the shower....  Self-protection is the watchword
here.>

Actually, self-protection was what I was after, too. ;) After thinking up
that
list of characters, I realized that many of them had made appearances in
Lois's
baby shower in S5, so I mentioned that episode since I thought if I didn't,
someone was likely to say that, oh, yes, those characters were given the
opportunity to react to Lois and Clark's marriage and then-impending
parenthood.

When I thin But the story *wasn't* from their POV.
(one notable exception is Rachel Smith's "A Chief Dilemma," another great
story
that's in the archive). I can think of a few that are of the POV or great
story
that's in the archive. I can think of a few stories that are from the POt
story
that's in the archive. I can think of a few others that are written from the
POV of Lois and Clark's children, and Dawning 19 is from Jimmy's POV, and
gives
his perspective of Lois and Clark's relationship.

-Christy
 kubitc@kenyon.edu
 Attalanta on IRC
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:21:37 EST
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         goldengrove unleaving <kubitc@KENYON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: 3rd Party Perspectives:  Was Godzilla, etc.

Ack! Sorry about that last post- the <But the story *wasn't* from their
POV.>
line was supposed to refer to Sandy's S5 episode. Those characters were in
it,
but it wasn't their POV. I don't know why those lines were repeated so many
times!

-Christy
 kubitc@kenyon.edu
 Attalanta on IRC

(who's wishing her school would upgrade to a better email program, so that I
could use the mouse to cut and paste instead of arrow keys, and could
actually
see all of the email as I was writing it...)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:55:08 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: last time  (was Re: "The Chicken and Egg Debate"
In-Reply-To:  <60acf6a3.35a7df7e@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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At 05:56 PM 7/11/98 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-07-11 16:12:42 EDT, you write:
>
><< YOu know, it wasn't until much later in the series when I went back to
look
>at
> the early eps, that I, too, came to the same conclusion as Gary. Perhaps
his
> relative inexperience just happened to work out well with Superman's
> inexperience--or he made it work well. ;) >>
>
>Oh gee, me too, and Ultra Woman wasn't showing fear, it was just ...
extreme
>modesty... harhar<g>
>
>Zoomway@aol.com (still chuckling ;)
>

Speaking of the more experienced Ms. Hatcher...what about her first major
acting role on The Love Boat? Her character, Amy Horton (dancing mermaid)
was described by her roommate thusly: "There is only one thing flakier than
Amy, it's made of corn and you put milk on it." And considering the
similarity
of the Penny Parker character in MacGyver, was Teri more like that when she
was younger or where those the character's traits?

And about Dean's stint as Rick on BH90210, he was an American in Paris, and
was
supposed to be unpolished...

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
| "What's done to children, they will do to society." - Karl Menninger|
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:54:05 +1000
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Leanne Genn <lgenn@POWERUP.COM.AU>
Subject:      "justification" of interest/obsession
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(This starts a bit off topic, I apologise.) I was home from work with
glandular fever this week, so I was able to catch up on a fair amount of
reading. One thing I finally got to read was "Dreamweaver's Dilemma" - a
collection of short stories and essays by Lois McMaster Bujold (I know there
are at least a couple of LMB's fans on this list <half bows in Pam's and
Leanne's directions>).

One paragraph really jumped out at me from an essay on how much the reader
"completes" the author's work. LMB describes her youthful obsession with
Star Trek:

    "... I and about six of my girlfriends would gather every Thursday
    evening for what my parents called 'the prayer meeting' and we
    would enjoy the show vociferously. My parents were baffled, and
    it was only lately, watching the show in very cold blood, that I have
    realised why. *They* thought that what they were seeing on the
    screen, the plot and effects and dialog, was *all there was*. They
    had no conception of how much work our willing brains were doing
    on the initial stimulus *after* our senses took it all in. We took the
    show in and *fixed* it, and it was to this fixed-up version that we
    gave our passionate response."
        --Lois McMaster Bujold, "The Unsung Collaborator"

I don't write, so I can't make any comparisons with motivations to write
fanfic, but it struck a chord as a way of understanding why the show is
*loved*. I kind of wondered if any of you fanfic-writers did feel something
similar to this? That what you're doing is transcribing your fixed-up
version?

Leanne
(trying to NOT imagine Admiral Naismith in the newsroom of the Daily Planet)
==========================
Leanne Genn
[lgenn@powerup.com.au]
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 03:22:58 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "justification" of interest/obsession
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In a message dated 98-07-12 00:57:28 EDT, lgenn@POWERUP.COM.AU writes:

<< I don't write, so I can't make any comparisons with motivations to write
 fanfic, but it struck a chord as a way of understanding why the show is
 *loved*. I kind of wondered if any of you fanfic-writers did feel something
 similar to this? That what you're doing is transcribing your fixed-up
 version? >>

>>>*They* thought that what they were seeing on the
    screen, the plot and effects and dialog, was *all there was*. They
    had no conception of how much work our willing brains were doing
    on the initial stimulus *after* our senses took it all in. We took the
    show in and *fixed* it, and it was to this fixed-up version that we
    gave our passionate response."<<<<

That fan's sentiment was similar to this (I think originally posted on the
list as well):

>>"Fan fiction is a way of the culture repairing the damage
done in a system where contemporary myths are owned by
corporations instead of owned by the folk." ......Henry Jenkins Director of
media studies at MIT (familiar to anyone who frequents the fanfic archive)<<

Since both express "fixing" something, that definitely must be the draw for
some, maybe most who write fanfic.  When I wrote fanfic as the series was
still airing, I liked taking the characters beyond where the show had as yet
gone.  There was a lot of revelation fanfic, falling in love fanfic, and so
on.  As the show caught up, that meant moving further still.  Now that it's
gone, it seems a continuing is what happens. There's also the 'elsewhere'
stories where you can change one or several elements and play "what if Clark
met Lois after she was married to someone else.." Or simply rewriting
something as in a revelation you'd have preferred rather than in early
fanfic
when it would have been speculation.  But to me, it has little to do with
'fixing' anything so much as a heartfelt expression of something that
touched
me about the series.  For me it's about giving back something it gave me.
The
catalyst to this was the old Star Trek series, and my love for that had
nothing to do with 'fixing' anything either, but it did make me look at the
night sky differently forever ;)

Zoomway@aol.com ("Captain, you almost make me believe in luck."  "Why, Mr.
Spock, you almost make me believe in miracles." ;)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 04:17:38 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model
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In a message dated 98-07-11 07:31:51 EDT, you write:

<< Then I suddenly found Lois
 reaction hard to explain without letting either her being weak or Clark
being
 childish. I found it difficult to give them *both* credit. But I think I'm
going
 to follow Zoom's lead here. Jimmy shall admire Clark for being brave enough
to
 face "Mad Dog" and show her that he's not doormat and he shall admire Lois
for
 showing so much style as to face the whole newsroom and go to Clark and
 gongratulate him. >>

Well, yes, they were childish, like I said in another post, they both had a
lot of growing up to do.  Lois threw tantrums, Clark sulked and sometimes
sank
pretty low with comments about Lois's virtue.  They were both childishly
lashing out early on, and mainly because neither of them had been in an
adult
relationship and so had no clue how to interact.   By 2nd season Jimmy would
see Lois struggling against her old childish ways and trying to switch to
coping on an adult level.  Wall of Sound is a good example of this
transition.

In Wall of Sound Lois throws a couple of classic tantrums "stunned! shocked!
In need of oxygen!" when she finds that Clark has gotten the nomination for
the Kerth award instead of her.  This was the first year since she'd been
eligible that she wasn't nominated.  That made her doubt herself.  Every
insecurity she had always carried around was suddenly magnified because she
wasn't nominated.  She wondered if she'd lost her edge as a reporter.  Lois
would have carried a cross on her back through the streets of Metropolis in
this episode if the knife she felt Clark had lodged in her spine wouldn't
get
in the way<g>

She lashed out childishly, belittled the worthiness of the subject matter of
Clark's story, kicked over a trash can when Clark had to dash off to be
Superman but his excuse made it sound like he didn't want to work with her,
and that just fueled her insecurity. However, in the midst of her insecurity
crisis, Clark knew what was upsetting her, and instead of lashing out in a
like manner, he told her "you're the best reporter in the city. You always
were and you always will be." He was growing up, and even if kicking and
screaming, he was taking Lois to adulthood with him<g> Not by overt attempts
to change her, but by believing in and respecting her for what she was. By
giving her enough room to grow up in.  By positive reinforcement when Lois
did
things that she was unsure of, but were good.  By always being there for
her,
even when she wasn't good ;)

>>>>The worst form of 'power fight' is that kind where one member of the
couple is
proud about being able to 'change' their spouses [....] But I'm afraid a lot
of people would see it as a "triumph"  [...]But both don't think that *they*
become more by getting the other to become less. That's what I would call a
power fight.<<<<<

Okay, I see what you meam by the use of "power-fight" in this instance, but
in
Neverending Battle, Clark wasn't trying to 'change' Lois.  He was trying to
show her that she was behaving out of control and that her behavior hadn't
gone unnoticed. When you think about it, Lois's bad behavior itself was a
'change' and so Clark, if anything, might be accused of trying to restore
her
to her old self, but not change her. If Lois had a chronic history of
stealing
sources, ideas and stories, then I'd agree maybe he was trying to change
her,
but that's not how Lois normally behaved and so changing her wasn't his
intention.

>>>>Only later in the series we get glimpses of a friendship-like behaviour
between
Clark and Jimmy. I think about Jimmy's reaction when this horrible-voiced-
woman
Victoria appeared at the Planet, for example or when Clark hit Jimmy with
this
elastic (? is that the right term?) in THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY. That was
exactly
this silly kind of behaviour you'd expect between buddies. And one of my
favorite
scenes regarding my story is the scene in DON'T TUG ON SUPERMAN'S CAPE where
Clark asks him "What do you think?" about proposing to Lois. Of course, Jimm
yjust sees the ring by accident, but IMO Clark's behaviour shows that he
talks
to a friend here, not just a colleague<<<

That elastic thing is called a 'rubber band' in the US (I know you're in
Germany, but your command of English is far better than my command of
German,
so I have no idea what the German word would be, but your English truly is
excellent, Nicky)  One interesting thing about the 'Jimmy' quotient in the
series is that though he's younger than Lois and Clark, he was fairly close
to
them on a maturity level first season as was mentioned earlier. I think
someone else (Georgia maybe?) mentioned that Jimmy became like a younger
sibbling to both of them and Jimmy in turn looked up to them in a similar
manner.  Jimmy even seems to think of Clark in the "boy scout" terms of a
goody-two-shoes, but would likely be stunned if he found out Clark was a
virgin and that he and Lois didn't make love until their wedding night
(okay,
I think even Clark's parents would be stunned by that one ;)  But you're
right, Jimmy became a lot closer to both of them as the series progressed
and
so he's a good choice for the POV.

Zoomway@aol.com (you ought to see an old Dick Van Dyke episode where the
only
honest POV of what happened was witnessed by a goldfish ;)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:17:19 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model
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At 04:17 AM 7/12/98 -0400, you wrote:

>
>Well, yes, they were childish, like I said in another post, they both had a
>lot of growing up to do.  Lois threw tantrums, Clark sulked and sometimes
sank
>pretty low with comments about Lois's virtue.

I agree, but I always enjoyed Clark's comments about Lois' virtue. Okay, so
what, typical male behavior: crude and rude, right? NO, because it showed us
that Clark cared about Lois. Why would Clark care if Lois slept with Lex,
Scardino,
or even Jimmy. Because he loves her and doesn't want her hurt, physically or
emotionally, by 'throwing it around'.

> He was growing up, and even if kicking and
>screaming, he was taking Lois to adulthood with him<g> Not by overt
attempts
>to change her, but by believing in and respecting her for what she was. By
>giving her enough room to grow up in.  By positive reinforcement when Lois
did
>things that she was unsure of, but were good.  By always being there for
her,
>even when she wasn't good ;)
>

Well said, but the occasional negative, disrepectful comment when it looked
like
Lois was doing 'something' bad, was used as well. When Clark catches the
freshly
showered Lois and Scardino in her apartment. Lois clearly keeps the door
closed
as much as possible, realizing how it would look to Clark.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
| "What's done to children, they will do to society." - Karl Menninger|
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 10:42:06 EST
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         goldengrove unleaving <kubitc@KENYON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model

<<< Well, yes, they were childish, like I said in another post, they both
had a
lot of growing up to do.  Lois threw tantrums, Clark sulked and sometimes
sank
pretty low with comments about Lois's virtue. >>>

< I agree, but I always enjoyed Clark's comments about Lois' virtue. Okay,
so
what, typical male behavior: crude and rude, right? NO, because it showed us
that Clark cared about Lois. Why would Clark care if Lois slept with Lex,
Scardino, or even Jimmy. Because he loves her and doesn't want her hurt,
physically or emotionally, by 'throwing it around'. >

Clark's comments about Lois's virtue seemed to be played for a laugh in the
beginning of the series and I can see enjoying them in that sense, but it's
hard for me to think about them being enjoyed because it shows that Clark
cares
for her. These comments show Clark's immaturity, not his love for Lois. If
you
care about someone, you're a shoulder to cry on, a (non-judgmental,
non-crude-commenting) voice of reason, and generally supportive.

Furthermore, do you think Clark's cracks about Lois's virtue actually helped
her?? She took them as insults, which she should, and, besides a probably
lasting hurt, the only thing that she (and the audience) got out of them was
Clark's immaturity. If Clark cared about Lois as you say he did, he would
tell
her that he was afraid Lex, Scardino, etc. were going to hurt her and she
should be careful. I know the nasty little digs at her virtue are probably
easier (and surely funnier) but a nice word'll get you much further.
Thankfully Clark learned this, because 4 seasons of "loving," depracatory
comments like his earlier ones would've gotten awfully boring. Interesting
that
as his love for Lois (and his maturity) grew, he outgrew these comments and
found that they weren't getting him anywhere.

Why should Clark think think that Scardino was going to hurt Lois? Sure, he
didn't like the guy, but he wasn't a criminal like Lex (about whom I can see
Clark, nicely & with the *respect* that Lois deserves, warning Lois).
Besides
the fact that Clark wanted to be the only one Lois was going out with,
what's
wrong with Scardino? Is Clark saying that he's the only one who won't hurt
Lois and therefore if she's with him, he'll stop his childish digs at her
virtue? Awfully self-centered (and immature) behavior, Clark...

Your suggestion that Clark is nasty to Lois *because* he loves her sounds an
awful lot like the justification a man uses to control/abuse a woman he
"loves," i.e. not "letting" her go out with friends to have a good time
because
her friends are too wild, they'll get her into trouble, instead of telling
her
his real reason, that he's afraid she has more fun with them than with him,
or
that she'll meet someone she likes more (perhaps someone who treats her like
an
equal instead of a child). Or not "letting" her have a job because "she
doesn't
need to work- he'll take care of her," instead of the real reason being that
if
she does have a job it's possible that she'll meet new people (who, again,
she
might like better than him) or that she would begin to see that she doesn't
have to be treated this way. She (and everyone else, man or woman, Lois
included) deserves more *respect* than these nasty disgs from the man who
"loves" her.

-Christy
 kubitc@kenyon.edu
 Attalanta on IRC

(who is anticipating a response that Clark acting this way has to do with
little boys teasing the little girls they like. I'd hope that Clark is more
mature than an 8-yr-old.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:13:40 -0800
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: "justification" of interest/obsession
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>(This starts a bit off topic, I apologise.) I was home from work with
>glandular fever this week, so I was able to catch up on a fair amount of
>reading. One thing I finally got to read was "Dreamweaver's Dilemma" - a
>collection of short stories and essays by Lois McMaster Bujold (I know
there
>are at least a couple of LMB's fans on this list <half bows in Pam's and
>Leanne's directions>).
>
/me half-bow's back.

I haven't read "Dreamweaver's Dilemma" yet ... LMB did come to the
bookstore though and did a reading from it -- the one with the short little
alien who interrupts the housewife? Proto-Miles, methinks!

>I don't write, so I can't make any comparisons with motivations to write
>fanfic, but it struck a chord as a way of understanding why the show is
>*loved*. I kind of wondered if any of you fanfic-writers did feel something
>similar to this? That what you're doing is transcribing your fixed-up
>version?
>
It's not so much a fixer-upper (although I have written those), but a:
here's the TV sketch which tells us certain things about teh characters,
the actors show the emotions of those characters ... and then b: our head
steps in and we *work* (and boy, did I work in 3rd season) on justifying
subsequent writer's inconsistencies ... somehow, our brains *meld* all the
bits of information into a satisfying whole: we relate to Clark, we relate
to Lois and through passionate viewing, we understand their motivations and
desires. This means that the characters start *talking* to us and we have
to write it down or we'll go insane. Or alternatively, we know these
characters so well that the "writer" in us (the voice that goes "what if")
can take and explore these characters and yet inexplicably remain within
canon. The events may not be canon but the characters (as they develop,
confront, learn, comfort, etc) remain recognizable and identifiable with
what a regular viewer of L&C has seen.

Oh boy, was that babble or what?

>Leanne
>(trying to NOT imagine Admiral Naismith in the newsroom of the Daily
Planet)
>==========================
>Leanne Genn
>[lgenn@powerup.com.au]

No, no!!! I'm not ready to write a Vorkosigan/L&C crossover ... please!! I
mean, *who* would babble more? Lois or Miles????

Leanne

PS. Hey and Miles has a secret identity too ...

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:19:21 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model
In-Reply-To:  <009C910A.2D9803E0.30@kenyon.edu>
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At 10:42 AM 7/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Clark's comments about Lois's virtue seemed to be played for a laugh in the
>beginning of the series and I can see enjoying them in that sense, but it's
>hard for me to think about them being enjoyed because it shows that Clark
cares
>for her. These comments show Clark's immaturity, not his love for Lois.

They show the relationship's immaturity. Clark can't say to her 'Don't sleep
around. Your worth more than that.' So he says "How far are you willing to
go to get a story?"

> If you
>care about someone, you're a shoulder to cry on, a (non-judgmental,
>non-crude-commenting) voice of reason, and generally supportive.
>

And when someone is about to grab something hot, you let them cry on your
shoulder afterwords, but you wouldn't think to judge them. After all maybe
they wanted to be burned?

I don't know about you but when someone you care for is about to be hurt
as in the example above, you shove them out of the way. Sure they may be
embarrassed and hurt but it's nothing compared to the alternative.

>Furthermore, do you think Clark's cracks about Lois's virtue actually
helped
>her?? She took them as insults, which she should, and, besides a probably
>lasting hurt, the only thing that she (and the audience) got out of them
was
>Clark's immaturity.

If they were a lasting hurt and Lois married the guy what does that say
about
Lois? I think they hurt little in the long run, and if it dissuaded Lois
from
a mistake with Lex even a millionth of a percent, it was worth it.

> If Clark cared about Lois as you say he did, he would tell
>her that he was afraid Lex, Scardino, etc. were going to hurt her and she
>should be careful. I know the nasty little digs at her virtue are probably
>easier (and surely funnier) but a nice word'll get you much further.

As Lex found out. (Ooh! Was that a dig?) At those time Lois didn't listen
to what Clark said, good or bad or indifferent, insults seemed to be the
last resort.

>Thankfully Clark learned this, because 4 seasons of "loving," depracatory
>comments like his earlier ones would've gotten awfully boring. Interesting
that
>as his love for Lois (and his maturity) grew, he outgrew these comments and
>found that they weren't getting him anywhere.
>

Uh, his love for Lois didn't grow, it was always there, her love for him
grew.
He didn't need to make them because the relationship matured.

>Why should Clark think think that Scardino was going to hurt Lois? Sure, he
>didn't like the guy, but he wasn't a criminal like Lex (about whom I can
see
>Clark, nicely & with the *respect* that Lois deserves, warning Lois).
Besides
>the fact that Clark wanted to be the only one Lois was going out with,
what's
>wrong with Scardino? Is Clark saying that he's the only one who won't hurt
>Lois and therefore if she's with him, he'll stop his childish digs at her
>virtue? Awfully self-centered (and immature) behavior, Clark...
>

Scardino was the most suspended agent in the DEA, and the most decorated.
Sounds like a potentially abusive hothead and/or widow maker.

>that she'll meet someone she likes more (perhaps someone who treats her
like an
>equal instead of a child).

Clark already knew Lois liked Lex more than him, that was what he was
afraid of.

> She (and everyone else, man or woman, Lois
>included) deserves more *respect* than these nasty disgs from the man who
>"loves" her.
>

Does that mean it's ok for Clark to feel bad about the "hack from
nowheresville"
and "your not working with me, your working for me" digs?
Respect is a 2-way street. Respect is earned not bestowed. Respect is....

>-Christy
> kubitc@kenyon.edu
> Attalanta on IRC
>
>(who is anticipating a response that Clark acting this way has to do with
>little boys teasing the little girls they like. I'd hope that Clark is more
>mature than an 8-yr-old.)
>

Well he does eat like an 8-year old ;)

When are you women going to figure it out? Men go through puberty, we don't
mature. Our toys just get more expensive...

That bratty little 8-year old boy will grow up into a 28-year old felon.
and the sweet little 8-year old boy grows up to be Clark.

We better stop this thread before someone complains...

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
| "What's done to children, they will do to society." - Karl Menninger|
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:50:41 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Susie Bauder <SusieB1@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Chickens ... eggs... how about an omelet? ;)
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There were a chicken and an egg in a bedroom.  The chicken was lying down on
the bed, totally relaxed, with a satisfied look on its face, smoking a
cigarette.  The egg, however, was sitting on the edge of the bed, frustrated
and unsatisfied.  The egg then turned to the chicken and said, "Well, I
guess that answers THAT question!"
=================================================

thought you'd like this,

SusieB
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:12:41 EST
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         goldengrove unleaving <kubitc@KENYON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model

< We better stop this thread before someone complains... >

Since no one has complained, I'll respond. ;) But seriously, if everyone's
getting tired of this thread, I'll be happy to stop, just say the word.

<<< These comments show Clark's immaturity, not his love for Lois.>>>

< They show the relationship's immaturity. Clark can't say to her 'Don't
sleep
around. Your worth more than that.' So he says "How far are you willing to
go to get a story?">

I think Clark's comments show both. As the show progressed, Lois and Clark
both
matured, which allowed their relationship to mature. I'm not very
experienced
in relationships, but I don't think two immature people can have a mature
relationship- I think you have to be fairly mature to be in a mature
relationship. BTW, I didn't think Lois was planning on sleeping with
Winninger
in Witness. Or did I miss something?

< And when someone is about to grab something hot, you let them cry on your
shoulder afterwords, but you wouldn't think to judge them. After all maybe
they wanted to be burned?

I don't know about you but when someone you care for is about to be hurt
as in the example above, you shove them out of the way. Sure they may be
embarrassed and hurt but it's nothing compared to the alternative. >

I think there's a big difference between this burning example and Lois and
Clark, and I don't think you can really compare the two situations. One is
an
accident that will surely result in being physically hurt, and the other is
something that Clark didn't know everything about. Sure, it could've
resulted
in Lois being hurt, and did, but all I was trying to say was that Clark
could've found a more effective way of "helping" Lois.

< If they were a lasting hurt and Lois married the guy what does that say
about
Lois? >

It says that the comments stopped. The man Lois married wasn't the man who
was
telling her he could peep through her robe, etc. Clark changed, and so did
Lois.

< I think they hurt little in the long run, and if it dissuaded Lois from a
mistake with Lex even a millionth of a percent, it was worth it. >

Maybe they did help "a millionth of a percent," but all I was trying to say
was
that Clark probably could've gotten further with Lois by stopping that type
of
comments. And he eventually did. And if Clark *really* wanted to put an
instant
stop Lois's relationship with Lex (and Scardino), he could've told her he
was
Superman...

<<< I know the nasty little digs at her virtue are probably easier (and
surely
funnier) but a nice word'll get you much further. >>>

< As Lex found out. (Ooh! Was that a dig?) >

Isn't the old saying, "you catch more bees with honey than you do with
vinegar?" I'm sure Lex understood this, and just because he used (false)
kindness to "catch" Lois, that doesn't mean that Clark couldn't use (honest)
kindness to do the same.

< Uh, his love for Lois didn't grow, it was always there, her love for him
grew. He didn't need to make them because the relationship matured.>

I'm sorry, but I've gotta disagree with this, too. I'd hope that Clark's
love,
which began by being attracted to Lois at first sight, and maybe feeling
some
sort of instant belonging or knowing, grew to beyond that point. As he got
to
know her, I'd hope (and the series seems to show) that his love for her
would
grow. Just because his love for her in the beginning surpassed hers for him
doesn't mean that both of their loves couldn't grow. As Clark said in his
Soul
Mates wedding vows, "Lois, I have loved you from the moment I saw you. I
love
your humor, your passion, the way you just dive right in, even when you
shouldn't. Because you refuse to just watch the world..." Sure, he did love
her
at first sight, but all these things he listed loving he didn't know about
the
minute he first laid eyes on her, so his love for her had to grow.

< Scardino was the most suspended agent in the DEA, and the most decorated.
Sounds like a potentially abusive hothead and/or widow maker.>

Also sounds like Lois... <g>

< Does that mean it's ok for Clark to feel bad about the "hack from
nowheresville" and "your not working with me, your working for me" digs?>

Yes. I think it's okay for both Clark and Lois to feel bad when the other
insults them. I don't think I ever said that Clark *shouldn't* feel bad.
They
both did immature things, and when they knew better, they did better.

< Respect is a 2-way street. Respect is earned not bestowed. Respect is....
>

I agree that some respect has to be earned, but I think that a certain
amount
of respect is due everyone, just for being human (or kryptonian ;) For
example,
when you meet someone who is older than you, it's customary to address them
as
Mr/Ms Whoever, not their first name, unless that's what they tell you to
call
them. They did nothing to earn that respect (unless you consider being born
before you earning respect), but it is bestowed upon them nontheless.

-Christy
 kubitc@kenyon.edu
 Attalanta on IRC
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:04:27 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "Georgia E. Walden" <gwalde14@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject:      Re: "justification" of interest/obsession
In-Reply-To:  <5d697854.35a86454@aol.com>
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At 03:22 AM 7/12/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>>>*They* thought that what they were seeing on the
>    screen, the plot and effects and dialog, was *all there was*. They
>    had no conception of how much work our willing brains were doing
>    on the initial stimulus *after* our senses took it all in. We took the
>    show in and *fixed* it, and it was to this fixed-up version that we
>    gave our passionate response."<<<<

I'd love to know a specific example of what Bujold and her friends called
*fixing* because up until she used that word, I thought this was a pretty
accurate description of what any fan, writer or not, does with the object
of their interest.  If the raw material on the screen or in the book or
wherever is sufficiently *alive* for us, we take it and study it and think
about it and discuss it with others who share our love for it. Perhaps
Bujold meant *fix* in another sense - embellish or extend rather than make
right something that was wrong.

Because I feel that the notion of "correcting an error" as a primary
motivation is at best a limited view, I also don't completely agree with
the other quote, which is from Jenkins' book Textual Poachers:

>>>"Fan fiction is a way of the culture repairing the damage
>done in a system where contemporary myths are owned by
>corporations instead of owned by the folk." .....

Some of the mental activity engaged in by fans may involve filling in
motivational blanks or reconciling discrepancies, or adding more detail to
a story that ended too soon for our liking.  Sometimes, if the original
material is really disappointing, there are re-writes or alternate
scenarios which could be seen as "correcting an error" made by the writer
or producer or that all-purpose villain, the nasty corporation who only
cares about money. ;)  But surely not all and certainly not me. :)

I believe it's a characteristic of memorable storytelling to make the
audience believe that there's more going on than is being told; to make you
want to explain the inevitable glitches or incorporate the puzzling or
disappointing twists into the story instead of being turned off by them.
Sometimes the motive is simply putting into words what we understand to be
happening because it pleases us so much. We share our thoughts about these
things with others. If you happen to have a talent for it, this thinking
out loud about the story becomes "real" fanfic - a fictionalized version of
the conversations we have here on the list or with our friends.  But all of
this is an act of creation, whether it results in another story or not. ;)

Another reason I don't agree completely with Jenkins' view is that "fanfic"
isn't the exclusive purview ;) of disgruntled fans of cancelled TV shows.
<g>  The same kind of imaginative response we give to our favorite show can
be seen in the dedicated fans of Sherlock Holmes, a literary character who
was controlled by his creator until he tired of writing about him.  Yet
since then there have been hundreds of stories that continue his adventures
or fill in holes in his back story.  He's been crossed over with other
literary characters or even put him into completely fanciful elseworlds
that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle never dreamed of. The only "damage"  these
Holmesians are repairing is the loss of a character they loved. I certainly
understand that feeling. :)

Or consider the unfinished novels by Jane Austen and Charles Dickens which
have provided jumping off points for writers. Emily Bronte's Heathcliff was
given a whole novel of "in-betweenie" ;) adventures and Robert Louis
Stevenson's schizo Dr. Jekyll was presented through the alternate
point-of-view of his maid.  Nobody calls it fanfic because these authors
used characters not copyrighted by Warner Brothers and DC Comics ;) and
they were fortunate enough to be published, but is it really all that
different in intent?

Anyway, I'd say that the impulse to "do fanfic" is much more than a
corrective for mistakes real and imagined - for both the writers and the
readers.

Georgia
gwalde14@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:44:25 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model
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In a message dated 98-07-12 10:43:44 EDT, kubitc@KENYON.EDU writes:

<< She (and everyone else, man or woman, Lois
 included) deserves more *respect* than these nasty disgs from the man who
 "loves" her. >>

Well said, Chrisy.  My gosh if Clark's digs at Lois's virtue were taken down
to their simplest form, he was actually saying "You're a whore."  Oh how my
heart beats with love for a man who'd say that .... geez :P   In the pilot,
where this immature behavior is first seen, Clark hardly even knew Lois for
crying out loud.  She wasn't his friend, his partner and certainly not his
girlfriend.  She was his co-worker and ownly barely just that since Clark
had
only been recently hired.  His crack in Ressurection about "that must have
been some talk if you needed a shower" was made when Lois knew Scardino less
than two days!  Those kind of cheap shots don't come from a man's love, they
come from a man's insecurity.

What's really funny is a possible scenario that could happen if Clark and
Superman were genuinely two separate men.  Say Lois and Clark had only
shared
one date (as had been the case in Resurrection) and weren't in a committed
relationship.  Clark opens the door to Lois's apartment and finds her in a
robe because she'd just stepped out of the bath, and there was Superman
(just
as uninvited by Lois as Scardino had been) and Clark sees them together.
Lois
is caught by surprise by both of them and says "Clark, Superman just stopped
by to thank me for  helping him ..."  "That must have been some "thank you"
if
you needed a bath."   The difference between Superman and Clark, and even
Scardino I suspect, is that Superman would have hoisted Clark off the floor
by
his neck and told him to apologize to Lois for that nasty crack<g>  It's
probably for the best that Scardino didn't confront Clark over the low blow
comment, not only because Clark might have hurt him since Clark was already
a
bit lacking in self-control, but it would have made Scardino seem the better
man.

The reason ultimately Scardino wasn't better than Clark is that he too
showed
little respect.  He used the intimate private thoughts of a dead woman
(Mayson
Drake) as a cheap device in hopes it would cause a reaction.  It's ironic
too
because he spoke with such regret over his dead partner Jana, and yet had
someone taken a diary of hers and thrown her intimate comments around that
way, he might have killed the guy.  Not unlike Lord Nor calling Lois a
"slut"
(maybe it's a Kryptonian default setting) and enraging Clark.   It's one
thing
when a man will stand up for a woman against another man's slurs, but it's a
very sad thing when the man who allegedly loves the woman is the one casting
the slurs.

Fortunately both Lois and Clark grew up (some men and women never do).
Lois,
who might have mistakenly seen jealousy as flattering and a sign of love at
first, learned that jealousy was merely a synonym for mistrust.  You either
trust the person you love, or you don't.  Clark learned the same thing.  The
last time in the series we ever saw Lois and Clark "get into it" over a 3rd
party was in Shadow of a Doubt where Leslie pulled an orchestrated stunt and
asked Lois not to tell. Lois's mistake was not telling (though she attempted
to before Clark had to fly off as Superman) It wasn't a jealousy issue for
Clark, he trusted Lois, but it was a relationship issue because they had
agreed not to keep secrets from each other. When Leslie told Clark that Lois
put him in his place, Clark knew that Leslie had been 'out of his place' and
he wanted to know how to address this man to man with Leslie.

That was a lot different from the old days where Clark attacked and degraded
Lois by impugning her virtue. It's a good thing Lois was just as immature
and
insecure as Clark, or she would have dropped him like a hot rock. The reason
none of this was overwhelming nor seen as a defining characteristic of
Clark,
is that such incidents were thankfully rare and did not continue beyond
Resurrection. In WIEAK for example, Clark was definitely territorial over
Lois
and jealous of Patrick, but the jealousy in this case had nothing to do with
mistrust because Clark had put an end to his and Lois's romance (for Lois's
own good, of course ;) and so Lois had every right to show an interest in
another man.  Clark didn't like that anymore than Lois liked finding Ms.
Kipling in his apartment late at night. Lois acknowledged that it was
platonic, but she also conceded there would come a time when it wouldn't be
platonic for one of them and asked Clark how he planned to handle that, and
in
pure Clark fashion, he hadn't thought that far ahead yet<g>  Guess he
thought
she'd seal herself in a bell jar and put her life on hold forever ;)  It was
a
great turning point episode though.  Lois made it clear that Clark neither
owned her nor had the right to run her life.  She was becoming so strong by
this point that if Clark pulled one of his juvenile crude remarks, he might
have had to walk six blocks to retrieve his glasses after she slapped his
face.

Zoomway@aol.com ("you're not the boss of us" ;)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:36:56 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Pam Jernigan <jernigan@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model
Comments: To: Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com
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Gary commented:
>>  I always enjoyed Clark's comments about Lois' virtue. Okay, so
what, typical male behavior: crude and rude, right? NO, because it showed=

us
that Clark cared about Lois. Why would Clark care if Lois slept with Lex,=

Scardino, or even Jimmy. Because he loves her and doesn't want her
hurt, physically or emotionally, by 'throwing it around'. <<

So insulting a woman's virtue is a way to show you care?  I'd hate to
think what he'd do if he *didn't* like her...

Those insults may have shown us, the audience, that he cared (although a
lot of us seemed not to get past the fact that he was being incredibly
rude) but that was *not* the message Lois got, and that's the point... it=

showed her (and us) that Clark was being an insensitive jerk.

>> the occasional negative, disrepectful comment when it looked
like Lois was doing 'something' bad, was used as well. When Clark catches=

the
freshly showered Lois and Scardino in her apartment. Lois clearly keeps
the door
closed as much as possible, realizing how it would look to Clark. <<

And she also knew from past experience that Clark was all too quick to
believe the worst of her...

And then Christy responded to Gary, and he responded to her, and I'm
gonna respond to him...

<<At 10:42 AM 7/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Clark's comments about Lois's virtue seemed to be played for a laugh in
the
>beginning of the series and I can see enjoying them in that sense, but
it's
>hard for me to think about them being enjoyed because it shows that Clar=
k
cares
>for her. These comments show Clark's immaturity, not his love for Lois.

They show the relationship's immaturity. Clark can't say to her 'Don't
sleep
around. Your worth more than that.' So he says "How far are you willing t=
o
go to get a story?">>

I'm sorry, but it is *never* more acceptable to call someone a slut than
to tell them they're valuable as more than a collection of body parts.  I=
t
was very insulting of him to even suggest that she would sleep with someo=
ne
for a story.

<<> If you
>care about someone, you're a shoulder to cry on, a (non-judgmental,
>non-crude-commenting) voice of reason, and generally supportive.
>

And when someone is about to grab something hot, you let them cry on your=

shoulder afterwords, but you wouldn't think to judge them. After all mayb=
e
they wanted to be burned?

I don't know about you but when someone you care for is about to be hurt
as in the example above, you shove them out of the way. Sure they may be
embarrassed and hurt but it's nothing compared to the alternative.>>

Sorry, the analogy won't wash.  Lois wasn't, even figuratively, reaching
out for a hot pot handle, and Clark was hardly knocking her hand aside. =

She was merely standing in the kitchen (maybe going for that frying pan, =
or
maybe just heading for some ice cream in the freezer) and he was throwing=

stones at her in order to keep her away from the stove.  You don't hurt
someone now in order to prevent possible future hurt, not if there's a
better way.  And there was.

<<>Furthermore, do you think Clark's cracks about Lois's virtue
actually helped
>her?? She took them as insults, which she should, and, besides a probabl=
y
>lasting hurt, the only thing that she (and the audience) got out of them=

was
>Clark's immaturity.

If they were a lasting hurt and Lois married the guy what does that say
about
Lois? I think they hurt little in the long run, and if it dissuaded Lois
from
a mistake with Lex even a millionth of a percent, it was worth it.>>

Well, let's look at the evidence... did Lois ever say "Gee, Clark,
you're right, I *was* going to sleep my way to the top, but now I won't!"=
 =

And this is precisely the issue that came up in Contact/WIEAK -- Clark wa=
s
trying to make decisions for Lois that were not his to make.  She had to
settle that issue before she could agree to marry him, and she did.

<<> If Clark cared about Lois as you say he did, he would tell
>her that he was afraid Lex, Scardino, etc. were going to hurt her and sh=
e
>should be careful. I know the nasty little digs at her virtue are probab=
ly
>easier (and surely funnier) but a nice word'll get you much further.

As Lex found out. (Ooh! Was that a dig?) At those time Lois didn't listen=

to what Clark said, good or bad or indifferent, insults seemed to be the
last resort.>>

The bottom line here is that these were Lois's decisions to make.  And
I wouldn't call it a last resort when we see that he started flinging
these little digs as early as the Pilot, at the White Orchid ball.  At th=
at
point, he had no reason to think that Lex was a bad guy, even, he was jus=
t
jealous of *anyone* who had Lois's attention.

<<Uh, his love for Lois didn't grow, it was always there, her love for
him grew.
He didn't need to make them because the relationship matured.>>

I'm not sure what you meant here, but I disagree with the first
sentence, anyway. His love for her certainly did grow, in the maturity
sense if not necessarily in the warm fuzzy sense.  He learned, among othe=
r
things, that he needed to trust her if they were going to have a real
relationship.

<<>Why should Clark think think that Scardino was going to hurt Lois? Sur=
e,
he
>didn't like the guy, but he wasn't a criminal like Lex (about whom I can=

see
>Clark, nicely & with the *respect* that Lois deserves, warning Lois).
Besides
>the fact that Clark wanted to be the only one Lois was going out with,
what's
>wrong with Scardino? Is Clark saying that he's the only one who won't hu=
rt
>Lois and therefore if she's with him, he'll stop his childish digs at he=
r
>virtue? Awfully self-centered (and immature) behavior, Clark...
>

Scardino was the most suspended agent in the DEA, and the most decorated.=

Sounds like a potentially abusive hothead and/or widow maker.>>

Yeah, so?  Lois knew that, too.  Again, her decision.  And the argument's=

not terribly rational, if indeed that was Clark's thinking -- Superman
certainly doesn't have a quiet uneventful life.  Come to think of it,
neither did Lois "Mad Dog" Lane - maybe Clark should have been trying to
protect Scardino <g> =

<<Does that mean it's ok for Clark to feel bad about the "hack from
nowheresville"
and "your not working with me, your working for me" digs?
Respect is a 2-way street. Respect is earned not bestowed.>>

Well, it'd be nice if we generally respected one another, at some basic
level, until proven otherwise.  And, yes, Clark was certainly entitled to=

feel bad at some of the insults Lois threw his way; they were both jerks
from time to time.  What it doesn't mean is that either of their behavior=

was okay.

<<When are you women going to figure it out? Men go through puberty, we
don't
mature. Our toys just get more expensive...>>

Speak for yourself, dear :-)

<<We better stop this thread before someone complains...>>

Too late <g>  Oh, no, wait, I got it wrong, I'm arguing, not complaining.=
=2E.

PJ
(who likes to read these sorts of threads on this list, because she
couldn't take the poor signal/noise ratio on LOISCLA and so is no longer
subscribed thereto)

!^NavFont02F1653001DMGXHHrMHtHI6BMI6DHJ5CMJ5EH]556983

  E-mail from: Pam Jernigan, 12-Jul-1998
  jernigan@compuserve.com / ChiefPam on the IRC
~~~~~
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jernigan/folc.html
Find all the IRC roundrobin fanfic / Featuring recommended fanfics
~~~~~
"Women and cats will do as they please and men and dogs =

should relax and get used to the idea." -- Robert A. Heinlein
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 22:45:50 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model
In-Reply-To:  <009C9140.BD9D4F00.80@kenyon.edu>
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At 05:12 PM 7/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
> but I don't think two immature people can have a mature
>relationship-

I was just watching The Human Sexes by Desmond Morris, anthropologist
on The Learning Channel. He said "The early stages of pair bonding are
often marked by a regression into junvenile behavior."

(Yes! I love Science!)

Why? Because it shows youth which is attractive for reproduction
and childlike behavior which activates the protective instincts.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
| "What's done to children, they will do to society." - Karl Menninger|
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:45:43 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model
In-Reply-To:  <199807122037_MC2-52E8-D7A0@compuserve.com>
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At 08:36 PM 7/12/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>So insulting a woman's virtue is a way to show you care?  I'd hate to
>think what he'd do if he *didn't* like her...
>

He never would've asked her out to dinner to celebrate in the Pilot, and
thus the first insult never would've occurred.

>I'm sorry, but it is *never* more acceptable to call someone a slut than
>to tell them they're valuable as more than a collection of body parts.  It
>was very insulting of him to even suggest that she would sleep with someone
>for a story.
>

The insult was the whole point. The questioning of her behavior in general
is as important as the specific behavior.

>  You don't hurt
>someone now in order to prevent possible future hurt, not if there's a
>better way.  And there was.
>

He may not have known about Claude at first. But it certainly proves the
possiblity of being hurt is high.

>Well, let's look at the evidence... did Lois ever say "Gee, Clark,
>you're right, I *was* going to sleep my way to the top, but now I won't!"

Wasn't that line cut from IGACOY? ;-) Speaking of which...didn't Lois
think that he had done that very thing with Toni Taylor?

>And this is precisely the issue that came up in Contact/WIEAK -- Clark was
>trying to make decisions for Lois that were not his to make.  She had to
>settle that issue before she could agree to marry him, and she did.
>

I guess that's why there wasn't any 'obey' in the wedding vows...

>
>The bottom line here is that these were Lois's decisions to make.  And
>I wouldn't call it a last resort when we see that he started flinging
>these little digs as early as the Pilot, at the White Orchid ball.  At that
>point, he had no reason to think that Lex was a bad guy, even, he was just
>jealous of *anyone* who had Lois's attention.
>

I thought Lex was a known/rumoured playboy.

><<Uh, his love for Lois didn't grow, it was always there, her love for
>him grew.
>He didn't need to make them because the relationship matured.>>
>
>I'm not sure what you meant here, but I disagree with the first
>sentence, anyway.

from JSN:
It's not the 'M' word....my love it just is (forever).
and
from INPY "I....love.....you......."

>His love for her certainly did grow, in the maturity
>sense if not necessarily in the warm fuzzy sense.  He learned, among other
>things, that he needed to trust her if they were going to have a real
>relationship.
>

And if he didn't challenge her behavior, how was this trust to be gained?

>
>Yeah, so?  Lois knew that, too.  Again, her decision.  And the argument's
>not terribly rational, if indeed that was Clark's thinking -- Superman

Who said love was rational?....

>
>Well, it'd be nice if we generally respected one another, at some basic
>level, until proven otherwise.  And, yes, Clark was certainly entitled to
>feel bad at some of the insults Lois threw his way; they were both jerks
>from time to time.  What it doesn't mean is that either of their behavior
>was okay.
>

I thought they were the perfect super couple.

><<When are you women going to figure it out? Men go through puberty, we
>don't
>mature. Our toys just get more expensive...>>
>
>Speak for yourself, dear :-)
>

Why Pam, Welcome to the Men's Club! Can I light your cigar? ;-)

><<We better stop this thread before someone complains...>>
>
>Too late <g>  Oh, no, wait, I got it wrong, I'm arguing, not complaining...
>
>PJ
>(who likes to read these sorts of threads on this list, because she
>couldn't take the poor signal/noise ratio on LOISCLA and so is no longer
>subscribed thereto)
>
>~~~~~
>"Women and cats will do as they please and men and dogs
>should relax and get used to the idea." -- Robert A. Heinlein
>

Maybe this is why Clark was concerned....meow!

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
| "What's done to children, they will do to society." - Karl Menninger|
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:52:49 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "K.M. de Castro" <KampmeyerM@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "justification" of interest/obsession
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In a message dated 98-07-12 18:01:56 EDT, you write:

<< Bujold meant *fix* in another sense - embellish or extend rather than
make
 right something that was wrong.
  >>
I took the word to mean *fixate*.

Marie
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:19:21 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Sheila Harper <sharper@CNCC.CC.CO.US>
Subject:      Re: "justification" of interest/obsession
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:04 PM 7/12/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Because I feel that the notion of "correcting an error" as a primary
>motivation is at best a limited view, I also don't completely agree with
>the other quote, which is from Jenkins' book Textual Poachers:
>
>>>>"Fan fiction is a way of the culture repairing the damage
>>done in a system where contemporary myths are owned by
>>corporations instead of owned by the folk." .....
>
>Some of the mental activity engaged in by fans may involve filling in
>motivational blanks or reconciling discrepancies, or adding more detail to
>a story that ended too soon for our liking.  Sometimes, if the original
>material is really disappointing, there are re-writes or alternate
>scenarios which could be seen as "correcting an error" made by the writer
>or producer or that all-purpose villain, the nasty corporation who only
>cares about money. ;)  But surely not all and certainly not me. :)

>Another reason I don't agree completely with Jenkins' view is that "fanfic"
>isn't the exclusive purview ;) of disgruntled fans of cancelled TV shows.

I was interested in reading your reaction to the "fixing a show" comment by
Bujold, Georgia, but I found myself in disagreeing with your reading of
Jenkin's quote.  I just read his book this May, and he was *certainly* not
of the opinion that fanfic was written by disgruntled fans of cancelled TV
shows.  Based on the view he presented in his book, "Textual Poachers," the
damage he was referring to was not damage done to the myth or story by the
corporation turning out a shoddy product, but damage done to the common
people by their exclusion from the creative process, and damage done to the
myths simply by limiting their development to the 88 episodes produced or
sanctioned by the corporation.

According to the way I read his dissertation, the problem is that corporate
ownership of our modern myths (i.e. Superman, L&C, Star Trek, Sherlock
Holmes, etc.) prohibits writers from using those characters and settings in
their own novels unless they have permission from the corporation that owns
them.  As a result, we get Lois and Clark novels by C.J. Cherryh and M.J.
Friedman (sp?) that have no relationship to what fans of the show enjoy,
while writers like Zoom or me or you or any of the rest of us who want to
write about Lois and Clark are forbidden to publish our work, regardless of
whether the quality is professional or not.

Enter the realm of fanfic.  Finally, we have a place to express our views of
this contemporary myth, to extend and expand the story, to focus on or
clarify particular elements of Lois and Clark that move or infuriate us.  It
isn't publication; none of us make any money out of our writing, and it only
reaches a tiny audience compared with "real" publication, but it gives us a
chance to add to the myth and put in our creative two cents.  And the myth
grows beyond the boundaries artificially imposed by the corporation.

That's how fanfic repairs the damage done to our contemporary myths:  fanfic
writers as well as those fans who argue over continuity and over the
meanings of certain strands of character development are involved in
creating a vision of the myth (of Lois and Clark :) that more precisely
meets the needs of its audience than the corporate product alone.  Every
time Zoom says she ignores the A-plot and watches Lois and Clark for the
B-plot, she is modifying the episodes that aired in order to meet her own
needs, and in so doing, she has become a co-creator of the myth.  Not
because she is a disgruntled fan, but because she is picking and choosing
the elements that speak most strongly to her and focusing her attention on
them and assembling them into a cohesive whole that goes far beyond what the
corporation originally created.

Sorry to run on so long, but it was a fascinating book, written by an
educator who also happens to be a fan.  A word of warning though:  it reads
like most of the texts in my grad school courses, which is to say, it's slow
going :)

Sheila Harper
sharper@cncc.cc.co.us
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:32:57 -0600
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Erin Klingler <erink@IDA.NET>
Subject:      Waving Cape Screensaver is ready!!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
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Hi all! :)
=20
Sorry for those of you who may get this post twice.  So many ppl have =
emailed me about this that I thought I'd better send this announcement =
to to both lists. =20
=20
The LNC waving cape screensaver is finally on my home page!  My LNC =
desktop theme has been on my page forever, but it has taken us a while =
to get this new screensaver done, and then more time to arrange for more =
space on our site to be able to upload it. =20
=20
For those of you who haven't heard about this screensaver we've built, =
it's the waving cape from the end of the opening credits.  Just before =
the cape appears on your screen, though, there's an LNC jpg.  So when =
you see 10 seconds of the jpg, don't go into a panic wondering where the =
heck the waving cape is. <g>  ALSO:  just a warning...the waving cape =
isn't a bit grainy since we had to blow it up to fit on a screen, and =
without professional recording equipment, TV doesn't produce the best =
screen  captures.  So don't complain to me if it isn't perfect. :)
=20
Instructions for downloading it are on my page, too, so hopefully =
installing it will be easy for everyone. =20
=20
My site addy is:  www.ida.net/users/davek
=20
Hope everyone enjoys it!
=20
Erin
erink@ida.net
=20
**********
"The truth is no one knows how long they've got.  Anyway, it's not the =
years that count, it's the moments....right now, as they happen."
=20
**********

------=_NextPart_000_0051_01BDADED.66821F20
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hi all! :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Sorry for those of you who may get =
this post=20
twice.&nbsp; So many ppl have emailed me about this that I thought I'd =
better=20
send this announcement to to both lists.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The LNC waving cape screensaver is =
finally on my=20
home page!&nbsp; My LNC desktop theme has been on my page forever, but =
it has=20
taken us a while to get this new screensaver done, and then more time to =
arrange=20
for more space on our site to be able to upload it.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>For those of you who haven't heard =
about this=20
screensaver we've built, it's the waving cape from the end of the =
opening=20
credits.&nbsp; Just before the cape appears on your screen, though, =
there's an=20
LNC jpg.&nbsp; So when you see 10 seconds of the jpg, don't go into a =
panic=20
wondering where the heck the waving cape is. &lt;g&gt;&nbsp; ALSO:&nbsp; =
just a=20
warning...the waving cape isn't a bit grainy since we had to blow it up =
to fit=20
on a screen, and without professional recording equipment, TV doesn't =
produce=20
the best screen&nbsp; captures.&nbsp; So don't complain to me if it =
isn't=20
perfect. :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Instructions for downloading it are =
on my page,=20
too, so hopefully installing it will be easy for everyone.&nbsp; =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>My site addy is:&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"http://www.ida.net/users/davek">www.ida.net/users/davek</A></FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hope everyone enjoys =
it!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Erin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:erink@ida.net">erink@ida.net</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>**********</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&quot;The truth is no one knows how long they've =
got.&nbsp;=20
Anyway, it's not the years that count, it's the moments....right now, as =
they=20
happen.&quot;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>**********</FONT></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0051_01BDADED.66821F20--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:14:47 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "Georgia E. Walden" <gwalde14@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject:      Re: "justification" of interest/obsession
In-Reply-To:  <35A833B10000007B@cncc.cncc.cc.co.us> (added by
              cncc.cncc.cc.co.us)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 11:19 PM 7/12/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Jenkin's quote.  I just read his book this May, and he was *certainly* not
>of the opinion that fanfic was written by disgruntled fans of cancelled TV
>shows.  Based on the view he presented in his book, "Textual Poachers," the
>damage he was referring to was not damage done to the myth or story by the
>corporation turning out a shoddy product, but damage done to the common
>people by their exclusion from the creative process, and damage done to the
>myths simply by limiting their development to the 88 episodes produced or
>sanctioned by the corporation.

I'll take your word for this explanation of what Jenkins meant, Sheila -
heaven knows you're right about the guy's style, and I'm not up to
re-reading the book. :) As a matter of fact, I went looking for the quote
and couldn't find it - since you've read the book more recently than I,
maybe you could cite the passage?

I agree that it may be limiting to not have the contributions of the fans
to the Superman/Lois&Clark story widely available, but I'm still not
comfortable with the term 'repairing damage.'  It implies that the versions
of the myth given to us by the current owners of the copyright are *wrong*
in some way, and that what we do as fans is the only thing that keeps the
story from being mutilated by insensitive professionals.;)  Considering the
things I've said about Dan Jurgens, I can't say he's wrong <g> but in my
more rational moments, I think he's underestimating both the flexibility
and responsiveness of popular culture, even when it's copyrighted, and the
subversive impact of new technology.

Whatever he or Bujold meant, the important thing seems to be that the
activity we're engaged in here is a perfectly normal one, and in no need of
justification. ;)

Georgia
gwalde14@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:28:28 +1000
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Jenny Stosser <jenerate@OZRAMP.NET.AU>
Subject:      Re: Waving Cape Screensaver is ready!!
In-Reply-To:  <005401bdae1f$b1e5f9a0$0300a8c0@kids>
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At 11:32 PM 12/07/98 -0600, Erin Klingler wrote:
>     Hi all! :)                 <>     So don't complain to me if it isn't
>perfect. :)          www.ida.net/users/davek   Hope everyone enjoys it!
>Erin erink@ida.net   ********** " "   **********

At the risk of echoing Lois in ... what ep was that? <G>
"It's up! It's good!"
thanks so much erin!

--
Jenny Stosser -*- jenerate@ozramp.net.au -*-This message is umop ap!sdn
 (Jenerator or Some1Else on IRC) -*- My ICQ# is 11477318
Photos of David (5) and Megan (2) on the Stosser Family HomePage:
http://geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/4583  Please sign our guestbook!
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 04:08:31 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      the plot's the thing (was Re: "justification" of
              interest/obsession
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In a message dated 98-07-13 00:19:58 EDT, you write:

<< Every
 time Zoom says she ignores the A-plot and watches Lois and Clark for the
 B-plot, she is modifying the episodes that aired in order to meet her own
 needs, and in so doing, she has become a co-creator of the myth.  Not
 because she is a disgruntled fan, but because she is picking and choosing
 the elements that speak most strongly to her and focusing her attention on
 them and assembling them into a cohesive whole that goes far beyond what
the
 corporation originally created. >>

I thought I'd just take this portion and address plots in fanfic.  I should
say that I don't really 'ignore' the "A Plot" in episodes ( more that they
weren't what drew me to the show or had a great bearing on why I loved the
show), but rather since Lois and Clark was a character-driven show (also
called 'premise'-driven), the plot served as a framework comprised of a
premise that allowed Lois and Clark to interact a given way. If you wanted
to
see Lois and Clark on the run together, then that premise becomes the plot
Dead Lois Walking.  If you want a premise that has Lois chasing Clark before
she fell in love with him, you create a plot that will give you exactly that
and you have Pheromone, My Lovely.  Like all character-driven stories in the
long term, the plots served mainly to further the evolution of the
characters
and their relationship. So in that sense the plots were quite important and
some plots even managed to be clever, funny, complex, suspenseful, etc., but
always at their best primarily when they got the most out of Lois and Clark.
To tell the truth, I find it difficult to write anything but very short
fiction without an A plot.

I always try and take my cue from the series and think of the premise I
want.
What do I want Lois and Clark to experience?  Then I try and write a plot
that
will best explore that premise.  I wanted first season Clark to have
everything he'd ever dreamed of; Lois in love with him, in on the secret,
married, a home together, and then find out what he would do if the right,
moral and ethical choice would take all of that away from him. Would he do
the
right thing even if it only served to break his heart?  The plot became
Counter Clark-wise.  I wanted alternate Clark to find his Lois, but I also
wanted certain issues addressed between that Clark and 'our' Lois, and so
the
plot to serve that premise was Always Something There to Remind Me. The
premise can also be very simple as in 'I want to create sexual tension' and
the plot becomes Look But Don't Touch. That's always how I approach a Lois
and
Clark story.  Well, unless it's a 'request fic' where a fan of the show who
doesn't write, has thought of a premise they'd like to see, and then I
create
a plot that will best suit (I hope) their premise (If You Can't Beat 'Em,
12:01, Cruise Control, Ultra Matum) Though with 12:01 Angie didn't want an A
plot, just the date that we didn't get to see that was made at the end of
Individual Responsibility.

I try to be as true to the series as I possibly can even using
premise-driven
plots because I see it as a way of honoring the series and preserving what
it
created. I try to be true to the show's continuity, how the characters
speak,
their  histories, and even true to the villains that were depicted on the
series, even if they come from another source (the comics) I defer to the
show's depiction of them.  If I were into writing X-Files fanfic, then I'd
be
as true to that show's concept as I could be and that would be almost
working
in reverse to how I approach a Lois and Clark story since The X-Files is
plot-
driven, the plot would come first, and then figuring its impact on Mulder
and
Scully (if at all) would be secondary (though there's a lot of Mulder and
Scully 'romance' fic that takes the L&C approach, create a premise that will
get them in a romantic situation)  Anyway, this was my cheap attempt to
create
a new fanfic thread ;)

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:15:19 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Sheila Harper <sharper@CNCC.CC.CO.US>
Subject:      Re: "justification" and the plot's the thing
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 02:14 AM 7/13/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I'll take your word for this explanation of what Jenkins meant, Sheila -
>heaven knows you're right about the guy's style, and I'm not up to
>re-reading the book. :) As a matter of fact, I went looking for the quote
>and couldn't find it - since you've read the book more recently than I,
>maybe you could cite the passage?

That's the funny part, Georgia:  the same thing happened to me.  Someone on
the list cited the quote by Jenkins ("Fan fiction is a way of the culture
repairing the damage done in a system where contemporary myths are owned by
corporations instead of owned by the folk"), so I immediately sent for the
book on interlibrary loan.  As I read it, I kept an eye out for the quote
because I wanted to see the context it was taken from--but I never found it.
Maybe it's in another of his works or a different edition, and that may
explain why I never got a sense of "TPTB have screwed up our show and it's
up to us to fix it" from the book.

Damage was probably too strong a word, but I was trying to use the language
of the quote and apply it to what I gleaned from the text.  However, I do
think that one of his points is that "myths" must adjust to meet the
audience's needs and the primary way that occurs is by allowing the story to
be written and rewritten.  Corporate ownership prohibits that, but if a
"myth" really means something to people, they'll find a way to make it fit
their needs, and hence, fanfic.  A lot of his comments were in response to
other academics who believe that TV audiences are completely passive and
noncreative and simply accept whatever the networks feed to them--*and*
perceive it the same way the producers intended.

Anyway, on to Zoom's comments:

>I should
>say that I don't really 'ignore' the "A Plot" in episodes (more that they
>weren't what drew me to the show or had a great bearing on why I loved the
>show), but rather since Lois and Clark was a character-driven show (also
>called 'premise'-driven), the plot served as a framework comprised of a
>premise that allowed Lois and Clark to interact a given way.

Yes, and I'm very aware of this.  I just gave a quick short-hand reference
to it in order to focus on the rest of the point I was making.  But, hey, it
gave you an excuse for an interesting post on writing fanfic by premise.
(Not that you ever needed an excuse, right? :)

Actually, I glad you brought up the subject of writing by premise so I can
talk about it too.  I don't consciously analyze the existing eps in terms of
a premise, but I apparently understand it on some level, since that's the
same approach I use on every L&C story I write (okay, so the one request fic
didn't have an A-plot, but it was a great bathtub scene ;)

That's probably why I was especially drawn to your writing from the first,
Zoom, because you took the same approach with your fanfic that I wanted to:
to write a story that was like a real episode in prose.  For me, the more
like an episode my story is, the more *real* it is to me.  Maybe because I
can really imagine it on the screen at 7 pm on Sunday nights, so it's like
it really happened.  ("And he flies?  I see.  Ms. Harper, how long have you
had this delusion that Lois & Clark are real people?" :)  I suspect that's
also the reason I've been struggling recently to come up with an idea for an
elseworld story--something that deliberately steps outside the canon of
existing eps doesn't seem real to me.

I've never felt the need to correct anything TPTB did in the show (although
the non-wedding argh came close :).  I keep writing fanfic because writing
is what I do, and it's the best way I know to keep the series alive.
Besides, I have a lot of premises inside me that the producers never
explored, and I want to see what L&C would do in those cases.

However, as I was thinking of the premises I've used in my own stories, it
occurred to me that fanfic writers who concentrate on B-plots *also* use
premises, which of course makes sense.  A premise provides a setting for and
a way of exploring character action and interaction.  It's just that some of
us build a full A-plot around it, too.  For example:  from the premise,
"First season Lois and Clark are forced to live together like newlyweds," we
could get "Honeymoon in Metropolis" from someone who puts an A-plot around
every story.  Or from a B-plot writer who writes the honeymoon suite
stakeout as an assignment from Perry that comes up empty, we could get a
story about L&C's growing friendship and how some unexpected sexual tension
affected it.

So where do little A-plots come from?  I think it may go back to why each
individual writes fanfic in the first place.  I want to write stories that
are like real episodes, so I include an A-plot and set up a story that
comprises a tease and 4 acts, with a major cliff-hanger at the end of act 2.
Moreover, the story has to be told through the dialog and action or it can't
translate to the screen, and if it is too long or too short, it won't fill a
one-hour slot.  For me, the L&C stories I write aren't *real* if they don't
have those elements.  But I also know that that isn't true of most fans
(either fans of L&C or the others Jenkins refers to in his book).  Most
fans, even fans of plot-driven series like "X-Files," write character-driven
fanfic--usually with more introspection than action.  Jenkins had some
interesting comments on why this is true, but I'd rather hear from the rest
of you:  why do you write (or read) the *kind* of fanfic that you do?

Sheila
sharper@cncc.cc.co.us
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:35:48 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "Georgia E. Walden" <gwalde14@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject:      Myth-adjustment and what kind of fanfic I like <G>
In-Reply-To:  <35A833B1000000A9@cncc.cncc.cc.co.us> (added by
              cncc.cncc.cc.co.us)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 08:15 AM 7/13/98 -0500, you wrote:

re: Jenkins and his theories:

> However, I do
>think that one of his points is that "myths" must adjust to meet the
>audience's needs and the primary way that occurs is by allowing the story
to
>be written and rewritten.

"Lois and Clark", produced under the aegis of a corporation, is itself an
enormous adjustment of the basic Superman idea to satisfy a need that we
didn't even know we had. Apparently we want to integrate the figure into a
myth that doesn't equate love with death.  (I know that sounds just too
pretentious for words - I plead guilty to reading a book on the topic
that's even more turgid than Jenkins :) - LOVE IN THE WESTERN WORLD by
Denis De Rougement - but it honestly does look that way to me.)

Why do we want to make this particular superhero one half of a romantic
comedy couple, and then a husband and father ? No one seems to care whether
Batman ever gets a life. ;) If the comic books are the primary source of
the culture's perception of the myth, which actually I doubt, will they
incorporate this shift in the story or will it disappear with the next
rewrite?  If the character survives and is still known in the future, which
parts of all the variations will be retained? Which elements are signal and
which are noise?  Lois is one of the few constants in the story's
evolution, but her function has changed quite often - will it continue to
do so?  Like Perry, I hear lots of questions, but I have no answers. ;)

and on another topic:

> For me, the L&C stories I write aren't *real* if they don't
>have those elements.  But I also know that that isn't true of most fans
>(either fans of L&C or the others Jenkins refers to in his book).  Most
>fans, even fans of plot-driven series like "X-Files," write
character-driven
>fanfic--usually with more introspection than action.  Jenkins had some
>interesting comments on why this is true, but I'd rather hear from the rest
>of you:  why do you write (or read) the *kind* of fanfic that you do?

Strictly as a reader:

The essential elements to me in making L&C fanfic work are the dialogue and
behaviors and what they express about the characters.  If these are right,
the A plot is strictly take it or leave it.  Though I  admire and enjoy
your ability, Sheila, to write something that is like an on-screen episode,
the A plot could be extremely minimal and un-original and it wouldn't
really matter to me. The writers of the show didn't have the luxury of
dispensing with an A plot, so I cut them a lot of slack where those are
concerned, but fanfic writers do have the option.  A simple premise, like
some of the ones done by the round-robin writers, can be better for
character revelation than a more complex plot.

On the other hand, staying true to character does matter, and that includes
the tone of the writing.  If fanfic doesn't have some humor, it doesn't
seem like real Lois and Clark to me.  Humor is a pretty broad term, of
course. I don't expect everyone to write laugh-out-loud snappy patter the
way Zoom does, but there's a certain air of light-heartedness even in the
most whammy episodes which I look for in a story.  There's that sweetness
too, that Zoom mentioned - the innocence that was never really lost - and
I'd give a lot to figure out how a bunch of Hollywood types pulled that
off.;)

On the question of playing around with the events of the episodes, I'm very
much a conservative there (yeah, I know - stop the presses <g>).  My theory
of characterization affects how I feel about creating alternate versions of
the characters' actions.

To understand the characters and write them true to their personalities,
what information do we have to go on?
1) What they say on screen
2) What they do on screen
3) What we can infer happens between the scenes from clues given, even if
unsaid or unseen
4) The subliminal information we derive from how the material is presented
onscreen via staging, set design, and music, etc.
5) The things the actors bring to the roles, which are specific to them.
For instance, I see Lois as vulnerable rather than bitchy when she behaves
badly in first season, because there's a vulnerable quality to Teri that
comes through even when she's doing bitchy things, and another actress
playing the same scene might not have the same effect on me.

Given all those things that we learn from and base fanfic on, what happens
if you change any one of them?  A great deal, in my opinion.  If you change
how the characters react to a single situation and alter the events that
follow from that change, it's not just exploring a road not taken by this
Lois and Clark as we know them, but creating a completely different Lois
and Clark.

For instance, Bev threw out a what-if scenario involving Lois being the one
suspicious of Lex from the start and Clark being taken in by him.  I'm sure
she could write a wonderfully entertaining story around the premise, but it
wouldn't be the kind of fanfic I look for first.

Though it was exasperating to see the seeming contradiction of
award-winning investigative reporter Lois Lane being fooled by that snake
Lex, and Mr. 'Always look for the good in people' Clark Kent being the only
one who sees Lex as he really is, I think the very fact that it was so
contradictory adds an interesting layer to the characterizations.  It
relates to what we know about Lois' tendency to hero worship and her
confused emotional history with authoritative men.  It's emblematic of
Clark's reaction to any man who shows a romantic interest in Lois, a
reaction that takes him into uncharted waters and not surprisingly causes
him to make mistakes in regard to Lex and with Lois.  The entire history of
the show would be thrown into disarray just by changing that dynamic.  I
realize that would be perfectly okay with a lot of people <g> but that's
why *I* feel that when you play around with the events you're also
drastically altering the characters.

Some ways to get around this are ones that the writers of the show
themselves enjoyed. They took advantage of the fact that it was a fantasy
show which used dream sequences and music videos as part of the stylistic
repertoire. It incorporated time travel, alternate dimensions (Tempus and
Mxy), duplicates, body switching, and past lives into the continuity.
These things let the writers play around with the established characters
and storylines without violating things we knew to be "true."

As an editor, I've read a lot of fanfic that doesn't meet my requirements
as a reader, and I know that it can be good fiction, intelligent and
entertaining on its own merits. But if I were just a fan who happened on
the L&C Fanfic Archive, I'd be looking for stories that gave me more of
what I love about the show, not something that departed from it in any
substantive way.  But that's just me. ;)

Georgia

gwalde14@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:22:17 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Pam Jernigan <jernigan@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Godzilla, respect and Clark as a role model
Comments: To: Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

>> >So insulting a woman's virtue is a way to show you care?  I'd hate to=

>think what he'd do if he *didn't* like her...
>

He never would've asked her out to dinner to celebrate in the Pilot, and
thus the first insult never would've occurred. <<

Well, in a way you're right, if he didn't like her, the situation would
never have come up.  But then again, I count the "first insult" to be
during the White Orchid ball, when Clark cut in on her dance with Lex and=

insinuated that she was using sex to get close to him.  (Okay, actually,
she was, in that dress <g> but he still had no right to comment on it, or=

to assume that she'd take it any farther)

>> The insult was the whole point. The questioning of her behavior in
general
is as important as the specific behavior. <<

Again, I don't think he had any right to question her behavior.  Even mor=
e
so considering that she was not and had no intention of ever engaging in
that "specific behavior", i.e., sleeping with someone to get a story.  He=

thought she got all her stories by trading sex for them?  Even ignoring
the moral/safety aspects, that hardly speaks well of her competence as a
reporter.

I do agree that he was tempted to the insults, etc, because he had fallen=

for her, hard.  But he didn't know how to deal with those feelings (it wa=
s
all new to him) so he reacted badly.  His mother, had she been there, wou=
ld
have hauled him off by his ear <g>

re: "sleeping your way to the top"
>> didn't Lois
think that he had done that very thing with Toni Taylor? <<

Possibly, I don't really remember.  Anyway, if he's so quick to jump to
that conclusion about her, maybe it's because that's the way he operates.=
=2E.
and I'm not defending Lois by that, btw, I just think Clark set himself u=
p
for that one.

>> I thought Lex was a known/rumoured playboy. <<

Again, I say "yeah, so what?"  Lois was an adult, she had a right to make=

her own mistakes.  And I will point out that if Clark hadn't acted so bad=
ly
at first, out of jealousy, then she might have been more inclined, later,=

to take seriously his warnings.  By the time we get to the end of the
season, I think Lois was tuning out anything Clark had to say about Lex,
attributing it all to jealousy.

Re: Clark's love needing to grow
I don't think we're in as much disagreement as it seems, here.  Yes, he
"fell in love" with her a few minutes after meeting her, while it took he=
r
much longer to fully reciprocate those feelings.  But he still had a lot =
of
growing to do in how he interacted with her (likewise for her).

>>  if he didn't challenge her behavior, how was this trust to be gained?=

<<

This would be a valid point if she were actually engaging in the
behavior (sleeping around) which she wasn't.  She didn't sleep with Lex,
she didn't sleep with Scardino.  Clark has *no* basis for the nasty remar=
ks
he makes.

>> I thought they were the perfect super couple. <<

Not to start off with :-) and I think you know that, so this is
getting silly...

PJ =

!^NavFont02F094E0059MGJHGC4MGC6HIOMIQHI6BMI6DHK6EMK8CHKC4MKC6HL87ML89HLAE=
ML
B0H NEFMNF1HOqMOsHOE3MOE5HPRMPTHP4F0688

  E-mail from: Pam Jernigan, 13-Jul-1998
  jernigan@compuserve.com / ChiefPam on the IRC
~~~~~
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jernigan/folc.html
Find all the IRC roundrobin fanfic / Featuring recommended fanfics
~~~~~
"Women and cats will do as they please and men and dogs =

should relax and get used to the idea." -- Robert A. Heinlein
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:35:20 -0800
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Nancy <mrspeel@BLARG.NET>
Subject:      Re: Waving Cape Screensaver is ready!!
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19980713162828.00756dbc@mail.ozramp.net.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>
>At the risk of echoing Lois in ... what ep was that? <G>
>"It's up! It's good!"
>thanks so much erin!

>--
>Jenny Stosser -*- jenerate@ozramp.net.au -*-This message is umop ap!sdn

"Lucky Leon", just after Superman kicked the bomb into space!

Nancy
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:52:55 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Kathy Brown <kbrown@WEBMART.NET>
Subject:      Ultra Matum? (was Re: the plot's the thing)
In-Reply-To:  <6355cffc.35a9c081@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 4:08 AM -0400 7/13/98, The Zoomway wrote:

>a plot that will best suit (I hope) their premise (If You Can't Beat 'Em,
>12:01, Cruise Control, Ultra Matum)

Ultra Matum?  Is this a new story, Zoom? Or am I just not familiar with the
title?  I don't think I've read this one ...

Kathy (salivating at the prospect of new Zoom fic ;))

______________________
Kathy Brown
kbrown@webmart.net  <------ Please note new address! :)
KathyB on IRC
______________________
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 04:13:12 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ultra Matum? (was Re: the plot's the thing)
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In a message dated 98-07-14 00:52:10 EDT, you write:

<< Ultra Matum?  Is this a new story, Zoom? Or am I just not familiar with
the
 title?  I don't think I've read this one ... >>

Yes, Urtra Matum is a requst fic I did for aev, but she has to approve it
first before I can send it anywhere else, and I can't remember her e-mail,
so
somebody help me out<g>

Zoomway@aol.com (it hasn't been editied either ;)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:19:16 +1000
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         trish <trish@HOTKEY.NET.AU>
Subject:      Help with fanfic
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi there FoLC's

Well for absolutely ages I have had nearly 3 fanfics (one is nfic)  waiting
to be finished..... but inspiration has not struck... I have outlines and
everything but no motivation whatsoever! Is there anyone out there that
would be willing to look at them and see if they are worth continuing with
or could offer any help in gettting them finished? I would be much
appreciative of anything.

PLEASE email me privately, not to the list.

Trish <trish@hotkey.net.au>
FoLCTrish on IRC
"Sell yourself stupid, never sell yourself short" - Raw FM
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:29:21 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Jeff Brogden <jwbrogden@BIGFOOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: "justification" and the plot's the thing
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sheila Harper wrote:
> ...
> Most fans, even fans of plot-driven series like "X-Files," write
> character-driven fanfic--usually with more introspection than
> action.  Jenkins had some interesting comments on why this is
> true, but I'd rather hear from the rest of you:  why do you
> write (or read) the *kind* of fanfic that you do?

The introspection, or character-driven fanfic allows me to get
into the heads of the people more.  It's like the difference
between a book and a movie.  I want to "hear" them think, know
what they are feeling.

What I read
===========
At first, I read everything I could get my hands on.  Now, I'm
much, much, *much* pickier.  All the WAFFy fanfic, that's so
sugar coated started reading alike long ago.  I couldn't tell one
from the other.  Now, I look for fanfic that has a detailed plot,
with a good attempt at covering both the A and B parts.  Above
all, I look for originality(sp?).  I can forgive a lot if the
story is creative and original.  I don't think I've read any
fanfic lately, though.  I can never find the time.

What I write
============
My first story (DEGENERATION) was just some crazy idea I had after
I had finished reading a Spider-Man comic.  I read the comic, then
went out to mow the yard.  The whole clone thing was in full swing
in Spider-Man at the time.  It struck me that after MOO, Clark
was effectively a clone, right?  Or not?  Anyway, the idea sprung
into my head, and I wrote it up.  It was my first ever attempt at
creative writing since high school (which was about 10 years or so.)
I sat on it for awhile, trying to build up the courage to send it in.
I had read every story in the archive, and basically patterned it
after the bulk of what I read at the time.

My second story (A KANSAS FOURTH) was originally ment to give people
some insight into Clark living in Kansas, and that Kansas wasn't all
flat-lands and corn.  Grrr....  (Although, from the last time I was
home, corn seems to be making a big showing in the fields now days...)
It went from a few pages to a bunch of pages, full of WAFFs, with the
help of Debby Stark.  Now, I look back, and think "Man - too many WAFFs."

UNKNOWN EMOTIONS - I've talked about it enough I think.  This was a
story I had to write for myself.  'Nuff said.

Here I stalled.  I wanted to write, but didn't want to write the same
old thing.  WAFF, WAFF, WAFF...  I wanted to try writing a story like
I read at home.  Those paperbacks that are about an inch and a half
thick, chock full of good stuff.  Solid A and B plots - even some
sub-plots, etc.  I seen the multiple fifth seasons start up, so I
signed on to force myself to write.

S5: OH GIVE ME A HOME was my first try.  Since this was supposed to
be a season, I tried to give a lot of attention to planning this
story out.  My previous stories, I just took an idea, sat down and
wrote till it was done.  This one, I planned.  I tried to think of
all the things people would think as they read it.  I was very
critical of everthing.

TUFS: THEN CAME YOU/TWO BECOME ONE was pretty much the same.  I'd
had this idea for a while.  I actually had more ideas than space.
I tried to plan it all out, so everything fit together, taking
advantage of the fact that this was an alternate world and I
could make up some of the rules as I went along.  I wanted to
cover everyone - which is tough!  One segment of the readers
want action, action, action.  Comic book readers were more abundant
for TUFS than S5 I felt, so I wanted to give them something to keep
them reading.  Since LnC's interaction is so important, I wanted
to make sure it was strong as well.  Which was tough since Lois
wasn't Lois for the bulk of the story!

Those last two stories, I also tried to play with the readers
emotions.  I wanted to direct their feelings, move them along
with the story, integrate them.  Make them fell what the characters
are feeling.  Why?  Because I love it when a book makes me do the
same thing.  When I read, I want to see what they see, smell what
they smell.  Think, feel, experience everything, just like the
characters do.  To accomplish this, I feel, requires more than
just B-plot.  It take more than a heavy A-plot.  You need both a
solid A and B plot, so that the characters have a world to live
in, and lifes to live in it.  Just like real life then, the A
and B plots can affect each other, and strengthen each other.

Now, the hard part will be to get myself motivated to write again.
The last two stories (S5 and TUFS) took a lot out of me.  Time
and motivation are my enemies.

I'm through now.  I bet your glad; if you've even made it this far.

:-)

=================================================================
Jeff Brogden
jwbrogden@bigfoot.com          http://www.bigfoot.com/~jwbrogden/
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:46:10 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Jeff Brogden <jwbrogden@BIGFOOT.COM>
Subject:      OH NO!! Re: "justification" ...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Jeff Brogden wrote:
> The whole clone thing was in full swing
> in Spider-Man at the time.  It struck me that after MOO, Clark
> was effectively a clone, right?

Editor!  Where's my editor!  Darn!  I bet your wondering what the
heck MOO is.  Well, simply put - it is a place holder.  I wanted
to go look up the full episode title, but forgot to go back and
do it.  MOO=That Old Gang of Mine.  (MOO is a good place holder,
it's very rarely used in writing, BTW).

Sigh - I hate doing stuff like that.  Now I feel stripped naked
in front of the 302 recipients on the list.

=================================================================
Jeff Brogden
jwbrogden@bigfoot.com          http://www.bigfoot.com/~jwbrogden/
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:03:32 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      OFF TOPIC: One of the benies of working in DC is...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

a morning with the President.

Hi Guys:

I mentioned to Genevieve in an e-mail last night that I might get into a
Presidential event that was being held at my place of work today.

The White House had asked the National Academy of Sciences last week if
they could use our Auditorium for the President's announcement on the
government's efforts on the Year 2000 computer problem.  (The word
auditorium seems like such a misnomer, since, when you're sitting inside,
it looks a bit like you're inside a giant golf ball.)  Anyway, we agreed
and they said that we could open the event to our own staffers as well.
Since my office is right upstairs and I work for the NAS' government
affairs office (no snickering), I thought it likely I'd get to be there.
Well, I just got back.

It's always extraordinary to see the preparations which go into even the
smallest of events, involving Clinton and doubly so when you also have Gore
as well as cabinet members and Senators and Congressmen.  (The Secret
Service began sweeping the building on Monday and this morning the place
was filled with oodles of dark-suited men talking up their sleeves, with
special dogs sniffing everyone's cars, metal detectors, the whole nine
yards.)

The event itself is sort of surreal -- half staged, half "live" -- with the
Press snapping away on the side.  Gore spoke first, and as experienced as
he is in government service, I am always amazed at how stilted he can sound
-- it's not just an over used joke.  In contrast, Clinton is Mr. Smoothy.
At first he made an announcement on the IMF granting a loan to Russia (you
may see this on the news) and then he went on to talk about the Y2K thingy,
throwing in little personal asides which made a dry subject so much more
bearable.

Afterwards he hung around and pressed the flesh a bit -- much longer than I
expected.  He's quite a schmoozer!

Sandy
(By the way, someone needed the address for "aev" which is Adrienne, I'm
assuming.
It's aev@cia.com.au)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:35:20 -0400
Reply-To:     NightSky@erols.com
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Genevieve <NightSky@EROLS.COM>
Subject:      Re: "justification" and the plot's the thing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sheila Harper wrote:
> ...
> Most fans, even fans of plot-driven series like "X-Files," write
> character-driven fanfic--usually with more introspection than
> action.  Jenkins had some interesting comments on why this is
> true, but I'd rather hear from the rest of you:  why do you
> write (or read) the *kind* of fanfic that you do?

Interesting question, Sheila.

I read fanfic to try to understand the characters in the Superman mythos
more clearly.  I don't care whether it's based on our favorite TV show
or on the comics, although there is darn little fanfic based on the
comic books.  Someone asked if a story about Jonathan and Martha's early
days could be considered "Lois and Clark" fanfic; I would say yes!
There is so much to explore about the minor characters, and even if Lois
Lane or Clark Kent never put in an appearance, it still would expand the
"Lois and Clark" universe.  Likewise, I would like to read fanfic about
Lois's early days, and Clark's early days.  We take it for granted that
they were incomplete without the other, but it would be nice to
*explore* that; see what they were like alone.

I *don't* read fanfic to re-experience the television show.  It doesn't
matter to me whether I can *hear* Dean or Teri saying the lines or not.
I love Sheila's fanfic, but I'd never noticed that it was patterned on a
tv show, with four acts.  The TV show was fun; I can re-experience it by
watching my tapes.  I like my fanfic to move beyond the limits of
television.

We tend to associate "A-plots" with villains, so I don't want to use
that phrase, but I like my fanfic to have some sort of conflict.  The
conflict could be caused by bad guys but it could also be caused by an
asteroid about to hit the earth (ASU); by Superman being busy elsewhere
when Lois needs him, like we did in "Full Circle: A New Day" (a fanfic
about which I have gotten *very* little feedback from anyone on this
list :-(); emotional trauma (Demi's Heaven's Prisoners), or other
non-villainy sorts of things.

Like Jeff, I'm begining to find the current rash of Waffy stories a bit
overwhelming -- all sugar.  Dessert is good, but every now and then you
want some meat and potatoes.  Which is not to say I don't enjoy reading
the Waffy stories -- I do.  But they are not the ones I tend to
remember, or to print out to read again and again.  That Lois and Clark
are in love, I have no doubt.  That their marriage could be as perfect
as is often depicted in fanfic, I have lots of doubts, but that's OK --
that's just where my view of the two main characters differs from other
peoples.  I like to see how Lois and Clark react to the real world, and
to realistic problems and challenges.  This is probably why I so enjoyed
Sandy McDermin's "Something's Missing" and "Love as a Blonde."  She
portrays a very realistic view of marriage, without diminshing the great
love they have for each other.

When I write, I guess I start with looking for a realistic problem or
challenge.  For "Yet Each Man Kills" I wanted to look at how Clark would
cope with a problem he *couldn't* solve.  I picked spousal abuse because
of the great job they did with that in the comics a few years ago.
Moving it into the "Lois and Clark" universe, I had to think about how
Lois would react to the same problem -- not as placidly as Clark, I
decided.  It wasn't until I was doing research on spousal abuse that I
realized that Lois fit the profile of a child coming from an abusive
family that I decided to work that into the story, and then the story
took off in a totally different direction.

For "Paradise Lost" I was also focusing on how Clark would react to a
real-world type situation.  Pat (my co-writer) submitted an outline of
the basic plot to the TUFS group.  She had the kidnapped girl and the
abandoned house plot all worked out, but she also mentioned that
Jonathan and Martha were about to lose the farm.  That was the part that
fascinated me.  How would Clark react to losing the farm?  How would he
react to not being in his parents' confidence?  Those were the questions
I tried to answer.   I wrote to Pat with my ideas, and we decided to
co-write the story.  Most of the Clark/Jonathan scenes in "Paradise
Lost" were mine, while most of the Lois/Martha scenes were written by
Pat.

"After the Battle," which is my little in-betweenie for Battlefield
Earth, was different.  It was written to defend poor old Colonel Cash.
After watching the episode, I signed on to LOISCLA Monday morning to
find him being villified, and Lois's *most inappropriate* kick being
praised.  To me, Colonel Cash had merely done what needed to be done.  I
stewed about it for a day or so, and found myself daydreaming the story
all day at work on Wednesday.  After work, I picked my kids up from
daycare, went to the drive through at McDonalds, came home, stuck all
three kids in front of the television, and started writing.  The Muse
was with me; I had the entire story finished by 11:00 that night.  Like
the other stories, it went off in directions I hadn't intended.  It's
all from Lois's POV, and although some of the characters try to defend
Col. Cash to her, that turned into a smaller part of the story than I'd
originally intended.

The only other time the Muse has ever been with me was when I wrote the
epilogue to "Full Circle: A New Day," again in a single [long] sitting.
For the final scene of TUFS, I wanted to show that all the ideals from
the first season had been accomplished.  I wrote it from the point of
view of a homeless man on the street -- no Clark, no Lois -- only the
Superhero and his city.   (In another plea for comments on Full Circle:
A New Day, I'd love to hear if you all though this scene *worked*.  I'm
really quite proud of the epilogue; I think it's one of the better
things I've written, but I was never sure whether or not it was going to
fit in the context of the larger story there.)

I've got two stories on the back burner now -- one is started, the other
is just conceptualized.  Both of them will look at familiar episodes
from the points of view of minor characters.  I got the idea while
watching the dailies of ATAI.  During one of the takes of the conferece
room scene -- the one where Clark leaves to take the phone call from the
villain -- the camera showed us Jimmy's reactions.  In the final
version, you only see Jimmy's face for about two seconds, but here in
the dailies was everything he was seeing and feeling while he witnessed
this big fight.  It occurred to me that all of the minor characters are
doing *something* while Lois and Clark are getting all the camera time,
and that it might be interesting to see what they are doing and
thinking.
We'll see how it all turns out.  It won't read like a TV show; it won't
be WAFFy (well, maybe a little WAFFy), but it may give you all an excuse
to watch some older episodes again, and it may make you look a character
in a different light, or wonder about what someone really *is* thinking
or doing in the background.

And I guess that's one of the reasons I write -- to try to expand the
Lois and Clark universe, and to explore different dimensions of it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Genevieve  (NightSky@erols.com) ; <http://www.erols.com/nightsky>

It's fun and quite easy to write about my own stories, but is it
terrible egotistical?  And I still haven't answered Sandy's review of
"Paradise Lost," but the kids are due home from the Pool, and I have to
get a snack ready for them. :-(  The real question is not *why* do we
write, but how on earth do we find *time* to write!
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:12:16 +0100
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Jenny Mills <j.mills@NETCOM.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Ultra Matum? (was Re: the plot's the thing)
In-Reply-To:  <235d0373.35ab131a@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Zoom

Finally something I *can* help with - if aev is the one at LAFF last year,
her email is:-

aev@cia.com.au

Was that too easy, must be a catch <g>

Jenny < in the queue for a copy when she approves!>
------------------------------------------------------------------

At 04:13 14/07/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-07-14 00:52:10 EDT, you write:
>
><< Ultra Matum?  Is this a new story, Zoom? Or am I just not familiar with
the
> title?  I don't think I've read this one ... >>
>
>
>Yes, Urtra Matum is a requst fic I did for aev, but she has to approve it
>first before I can send it anywhere else, and I can't remember her e-mail,
so
>somebody help me out<g>
>
>Zoomway@aol.com (it hasn't been editied either ;)
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jenny Mills             j.mills@netcom.co.uk
                        jmills@ccta.gov.uk

Lois: In one lousy second, I lost my partner and my best friend. He died
without knowing. I never told him.                      - ToGoM

Wells: Destiny has blessed you both with each other. No small gift indeed.
There's many people who travel alone through, well, their whole lives and
envy what you two have together . . . greatly.          - Soul Mates
------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:48:28 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         No Name Available <Larus2407@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: OH NO!! Re: "justification" ...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-07-14 09:56:25 EDT, jwbrogden@BIGFOOT.COM writes:

<< (MOO is a good place holder,
 it's very rarely used in writing, BTW).

 Sigh - I hate doing stuff like that.  Now I feel stripped naked
 in front of the 302 recipients on the list. >>

Yeah, but we all have a great "inside" joke now. Moo <g>

--L
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:52:59 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ultra Matum? (was Re: the plot's the thing)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-07-14 15:43:13 EDT, you write:

<< Finally something I *can* help with - if aev is the one at LAFF last
year,
 her email is:- >>

Thanks, Jen, (and several others ;) for giving me aev's e-addy.  I should
have
said "Adrianne" but since I didn't remember her last name (she's *always*
just
'aev' on IRC) I didn't want to launch a thread of "Adrieanne Who?"<g>

thanks again everyone ;)

Zoomway@aol.com (LOISCLA has become the "list of Adrieanne's messanger"
ouch,
smack me, I deserve it ;)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:20:34 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Kate Crane <KCrane1865@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "justification" and the plot's the thing
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-07-14 09:40:09 EDT, you write:

<< Now, the hard part will be to get myself motivated to write again. >>

Jeff, I certainly hope you do get motivated again.....I love your work.  I
totally agree:

"At first, I read everything I could get my hands on.  Now, I'm
much, much, *much* pickier.  All the WAFFy fanfic, that's so
sugar coated started reading alike long ago.  I couldn't tell one
from the other.  Now, I look for fanfic that has a detailed plot,
with a good attempt at covering both the A and B parts.  Above
all, I look for originality(sp?).  I can forgive a lot if the
story is creative and original."

Your works would definitely fit your description.....
Kate
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:34:50 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "justification" and the plot's the thing & myth
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-07-13 09:16:46 EDT, you write:

<< Yes, and I'm very aware of this.  I just gave a quick short-hand
reference
 to it in order to focus on the rest of the point I was making.  But, hey,
it
 gave you an excuse for an interesting post on writing fanfic by premise.
 (Not that you ever needed an excuse, right? :) >>

Actually, my dismissal of A Plot is a good call on me as a viewer/fan of
Lois
and Clark, you're right, I'm notorious for that<G>  Writing fanfic, on the
other hand, I almost always have to have an A Plot because it's often where
moral dilemmas, strengths, weakness, courage, tenderness, etc. are extracted
from the characters. It provides that temporary time and place where events
can happen under a given plot premise that normally wouldn't occur.  As you
bring up later, Honeymoon in Metropolis puts Lois and Clark in a honeymoon
suite together pretending to be newlyweds so that they can spy on the
congressman in the next building. The premise that led to this plot could
have
been very simple "place Lois and Clark in a situation of forced intimacy"
and
so the plot was designed to accommodate that. The Phoenix is the same thing,
but taking place when their relationship was at the beginning of a new
level,
one that could have led to intimacy too early if they weren't careful (Lois
did get to be on top though ;)

>>>That's probably why I was especially drawn to your writing from the
first,
Zoom, because you took the same approach with your fanfic that I wanted to:
to write a story that was like a real episode in prose.<<<<

That's the nicest compliment you could ever give me, Sheila, because that's
what I always tried to strive for, so thank you for that, very much ;)

>>>For me, the more
like an episode my story is, the more *real* it is to me.  Maybe because I
can really imagine it on the screen at 7 pm on Sunday nights, so it's like
it really happened.  ("And he flies?  I see.  Ms. Harper, how long have you
had this delusion that Lois & Clark are real people?" :)<<<

Hee hee, well, Friskin could make something of that ;) But I know what you
mean. Part of the fun (for me at least) is trying to make the dialog "sound"
like the characters sound.  Clark Kent may be from Kansas, but Dean is from
Malibu and so once in a while there's gonna be a "gonna" in there ;) This
gets
into part of what Georgia mentioned in her post about even the actors who
portrayed the characters being partly responsible for the entire package
deal
of Lois and Clark. They may be characters that were created by Siegel and
Shuster and perpetuated by DC Comics, but they were not like the Batman
refillable rubber suit, and to treat them that way is a little insulting.
Phyllis Coates, Noel Neill, Margot Kidder and Teri Hatcher played Lois Lane
so
differently that aside from the character name and each being affiliated to
Superman, they weren't the same "character" at all.  When I write Lois in
"Lois and Clark" fanfic, I *picture* and *hear* Teri Hatcher.  I can't
separate the two and create some generic 'Lois Lane'.   I take that approach
with all of the characters even if they weren't seen in more than a handful
of
episodes.  Then there's that body language ;)

Teri, as Lois, was very 'tactile' even from the beginning of the series.
Whether she was playfully smacking Clark in the chest (Strange Visitor)
draped
over him after rubbing his shoulders (The Foundling) or squelching him by
the
labels in Smart Kids, she touched Clark a *lot*<g> When Lois became a close
friend to Clark, Lois upped the ante a little by often gently placing and
keeping her her hands on Clark's chest (don't blame her a bit on that one
;),
almost creating a physical conduit between them. Once Lois fell in love with
Clark, oh my but she found some intriguing 'invasion of space' techniques ;)
Reaching into his pocket (WWW) reaching into his jacket and rubbing his side
(UW) rubbing his inner thigh (TAGD)

Dean, as Clark, had his brand of 'tactile' moves early on as well, and one
that is almost trademarked, the cheek touch ;)  Admittedly he could touch
her
a bit more as Superman in the beginning, but once he and Lois became
friends,
he could place a hand on her shoulder (Metallo) or an arm around her
(Barbarians at the Planet) if they were quick and playful moves.  He could
initiate a hug with Lois if she was frightened or hurting (Witness)  Dean
played Clark wonderfully tenative with Lois even after they fell in love.
He
feels the need to use the excuse "You chilly?" in order to put his arm
around
her (And the Answer is), and when she says that she's not chilly, he starts
to
move his arm away, and Lois pulls it back letting him know he needs no
excuse
to put his arm around her.  Compare that to several episodes later (Ultra
Woman) where they're walking together, the same path, but Clark's arm is
securely and comfortably around Lois's shoulders and their fingers are
interlaced.

On a non-touching 'body language' level, Lois spoke most animated when she
was
angry or upset.  She used both arms in motion in large gestures
expressively.
Clark often had one hand in his pocket and one arm free to move and gesture
with while speaking.  When Lois folded her arms, it was almost a visual
"dare".  She was drawing a line daring her opponent to step over it.  It was
a
non-verbal "Oh really".  She also folded her arms when she was impatient,
but
was being forced to listen to something she didn't necessarily want to hear.
Clark was a sigher<g> The man had a sigh for all occasions.

Believe me, I'm not saying anyone, myself included probably, should pay
*that*
much attention to the characrters, but I really can't seem to help it, I
just
see them on many levels and that includes how the actors portrayed them.
However, in fanfic where just about every single element from the series is
ignored, I don't care how well-written it is, it's not Lois and Clark.  I
don't like reading along saying "Who *are* these people?"  That gets back to
treating Lois and Clark as just "names" and nothing more.

>>>>Most fans, even fans of plot-driven series like "X-Files," write
character-driven
fanfic--usually with more introspection than action.  Jenkins had some
interesting comments on why this is true, but I'd rather hear from the rest
of
you:  why do you write (or read) the *kind* of fanfic that you do?<<<<

For me, this relates back to what I mentioned above.  One reason most of us
do
write about the characters (even to the exclusion of a plot) is because
we've
come to care about them, but if how they were established in the series is
totally ignored, then I don't see the point in calling it "Lois and Clark"
(or
"X-Files") fanfic if the characters aren't written true to that medium. The
television series created so many "playgrounds" where fanfic writers can
play
(alternate universe, alternate time, soulmates, villains who can alter
reality
itself) that there are venues to "vent" a differing point of view and still
stay true to the series.

I view Lois and Clark's love (gosh, it is a *romance* ;) as being at the
core
of almost everything that defines them and at the heart of that is a mutual
respect, trust, love and honesty. If someone wants to write a story about
them
cheating or contemplating cheating on each other, okay, I'll wonder who
these
people are, but I won't bang my head on the monitor over it either<g>  I see
Lois and Clark as a couple who have to try ten times harder to make
something
work because it may be ten times more important, even final to them, than it
might be for the average couple (whatever 'average' means here)  Neither of
them has the luxury to throw their arms in the air and shout "I'm outta
here",
not just because it's out of character for them to do so, but what and where
were their alternatives?

When Clark said "if I blow this, I lose everything" he knew exactly how
important it was to make the relationship with Lois work, because likely for
him, there wouldn't be another chance. His secret was far too dangerous and
important for anything but the deepest of commitment with someone who also
understood the danger and was willing to share the risk and make the
necessary
sacrifices to uphold and protect that important secret.  With Lois, beyond
the
reality that she literally had "Superman" and made love in ways that no
'earth-bound' man could hope to equal, she was *part* of Superman, his life,
his reality, and that would all be gone as well.  They had to try harder,
because if they didn't, they wouldn't be the Lois and Clark I've come to
know
and care about.

Lastly, as to the issue of "waffs", well, I think it helps if someone
defines
that beyond "warm and fuzzy feeling"<g>  To me, Clark kissing Lois's hand as
a
gesture of comfort, was a 'waff',  a hug was a 'waff', Clark beaming a big
smile at Lois when she said that Superman was "the worst one of all of you"
when it came to being a 'sentimental softy' was a 'waff'.  Just as Clark
said
there was "no one way" when it came to how he felt about Lois, I never see a
'waff' as just *this* or just *that*.   Even Lois slamming the door in
Clark's
face after their first date was a 'waff' for me, because it meant she was
hooked and had no clue what to do about it<g>  Clark tossing the engagement
ring into orbit was a wham, but being their to catch it, was a waff.  It was
a
simple scene, but it showed that no matter how frustrated or upset the
mysteries of love and Lois Lane made him, he would never ever give up, and
so
that was a wonderful waff for me and something of a metaphor for the whole
series to me.

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:10:59 -0700
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Mercedes Galvez-Arango <MGALVEZ@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Dean on AH again
Comments: cc: GALVEZ@PACBELL.NET
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

I saw that ep of AH too!!  I was soooo GLAD DC got Lnc instead.  I don't
think it would have been the same!  If he had gotten B. then I would never
have seen him, admired and "loved" him like I did on LnC.    Mercedes
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:16:23 -0700
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Mercedes Galvez-Arango <MGALVEZ@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU>
Subject:      the soulmate chronicles: sea hawk
Comments: cc: GALVEZ@PACBELL.NET
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

Can I get the soulmate chronicles in the LnC gateway fan archive?  I would
love to read this but I don't have the time & space to do it now.

        Thanks,  Mercedes
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:19:42 -0700
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Mercedes Galvez-Arango <MGALVEZ@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Zippers
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

which ep was this?????

Mercedes
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:24:19 -0700
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Mercedes Galvez-Arango <MGALVEZ@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Zippers
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

If he had used his superspeed on LL then he would've only given her friction
burn.  She is a human being, not an inanimate object.  She would've been
flaying her arms and legs about as he moved around her.    --Mercedes
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:31:50 -0800
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Tips for fanfic writers (fwd)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Came across this on another email list I belong too ... haven't read it all
yet, but thought it would interest y'all. Sorry, "everyone". :)

>
>This is on the web, and it says it can be distributed freely, so...
>
>Tips for Fan Ficton Writers
>
>                                  version 2.0
>
> Written by W. Loraine Kelley and Kyrie Daniels. Last updated September 17,
>1996. Suggestions,
>               comments, and/or additions highly welcome and encouraged.
>
>This document is intended to help authors improve the technical aspects of
>their writing, so readers
>can spend more time on the story. This document is divided into three
parts.
>The first will focus on
>explanations and clarifications of some basic grammar rules. The second
will
>focus on tips for
>formatting a story to be posted to the internet, with some additional
>suggestions for both authors and
>readers. The third will detail rules found on specific mailing lists
>concerning fan fiction.
>
>Permission is granted to distribute this document freely in its entirety.
>
>   I.Grammar
>        i.Frequently misused homonyms
>        ii.Frequently misspelled/misused words
>        iii.Punctuation rules
>        iv.Pluralization vs. Possessive
>   II.Suggestions
>        i.Formatting
>        ii.Part 0, Disclaimers, and other notes
>        iii.Additional suggestions
>  III.III. Addendum
>        i.TPFICT
>        ii.SLFIC
>
>I. Always run your spell-check before posting. Lots of misspelled words are
>one of the biggest
>things that will cause a reader to delete the story before finishing it.
>Then, read it over once again to
>check for typos that a spell-checker would miss. Every word in the sentence
>"too bee ore knot too
>bee" is spelled correctly, yet is incorrect in the context. Also make sure
>that proper names, such as
>the names of characters are spelled correctly.
>
>     i. Frequently misused homonyms:
>     a) they're/their/there
>     "they're" is the contraction of "they are"
>          They're going now.
>          They are going now.
>     "their" is the possessive form of the pronoun "they"
>          Their dog was barking all last night.
>     "there" is used to indicate a place
>          The soup is over there.
>     b) too/to/two
>     "too" has the same basic meaning as "also"
>          I want to do that too.
>     "too" is also used in descriptive comparisons.
>          The wait was too long.
>     "to" is the preposition
>          We should go to the store.
>     "two" is the number
>          He has two cats.
>     c) hear/here
>     "hear" is the verb that relates to sound
>          I hear you.
>     "here" is another word used to indicate place
>          The cereal is here.
>     d) it's/its
>     "it's" is the contraction of "it is"
>          It's your turn to pay.
>     "its" is the possessive form of "it"
>          The dog had finished its bone.
>
>     ii. Frequently misspelled/misused words
>     a) lose/loose
>     "lose" is the one with the "z" sound in it.
>          He will lose the argument.
>     "loose" is the one with the "s" sound in it.
>          The ropes came loose.
>     b) alot/allright
>     Neither "alot" or "allright" are words. They are both two word phrases
>"a lot" and "all
>     right."
>     c) fewer/less
>     "fewer" is used with count nouns.
>          On Saturdays, fewer cars line the street. "less" is used with
mass
>nouns.
>          There is less pollution now.
>     (hint: if the word becomes plural by adding an "s" to the end, use the
>word "fewer".)
>     d) than/then
>     "than" is used in comparisons
>          We go out more than we used to.
>          Her eyes are bluer than before.
>     "then" is used as an indicator of time.
>          We went to dinner then to a movie.
>
>     iii. There is such a thing as too much punctuation.
>     Punctuation should be used to accent a point, not to make the point.
>     a) Exclamation Points Try to avoid the use of exclamation points all
>together, but if
>     you must use them, limit yourself to one per sentence. Even better,
>limit yourself to one
>     per every five pages of story.
>     b) Ellipses
>     Three dots are used to indicate a sentence trailing off, like a person
>interrupted in
>     speech. Four dots is a sentence trailing off and ending.
>     c) Quotation Marks
>     Dialogue should be enclosed within quotation marks, either single or
>double.
>     Punctuation for the sentence goes inside the marks.
>          "What did you do yesterday?"
>     A comma is used to indicate that dialogue is starting or ending,
unless
>other punctuation
>     is used.
>          She said, "We have to talk."
>          "We have to talk," she said.
>          He looked over her shoulder. "No." There is a common, and often
>neglected,
>     grammar rule that says to start a new paragraph each time a new person
>speaks. Thus
>     the following example is both incorrect and hard to understand:
>          "We have to talk," she said. He looked over her shoulder. "No."
>"But there's
>          something I need to tell you." "I don't care."
>     It should be:
>          "We have to talk," she said.
>          He looked over her shoulder. "No."
>          "But there's something I need to tell you."
>          "I don't care."
>
>     iv. Pluralization and Possessive both are marked similarly, but there
is
>     one major difference.
>     a) Plural (more than one) is marked usually by putting an 's' at the
>end of the word.
>          The dogs ---> more than one dog.
>     b) Possessive (ownership) is marked with an apostrophe and 's' at the
>end of the
>     possessor.
>     The 's' comes after the apostrophe when it's only one item doing the
>possessing.
>          The dog's bone ---> the bone that belongs to the dog.
>     The 's' comes before the apostrophe when it's more than one item
>doing the
>     possessing.
>          The dogs' bone ---> the bone that belongs to many dogs.
>     Pronouns do not follow these rules. Note the example of "it's" vs
"its"
>in the section on
>     commonly misused homonyms.
>
>II. The Internet is a unique forum for the written word. Many styles of
>formatting that would work
>on paper simply do not work on the computer screen.
>
>     i. Formatting
>          Either indent each new paragraph by four or five spaces if you
>want to write
>     book style, or Leave a blank line between paragraphs. Never send a
>document that
>     isn't in plain ASCII text unless someone specifically asks you to. In
>the "Save As" menu
>     of your word processor, there should be an option that lets you save a
>file at ".txt". This
>     will put it in ASCII text.
>          Documents should be uploaded directly into the body of the
message
>instead of
>     being sent as attached files. Many people's mailers can't accommodate
>attached files,
>     which means they'll end up receiving 96K of garbage. Some online
>services can't
>     handle messages over 5 pages (300 lines) in length effectively. If a
>message is longer
>     than five pages, it's too long. Break it into parts of 5 pages or
>fewer. Don't forget to
>     number the parts so people know what order to reassemble them in.
Also,
>include
>     something at the bottom of each post, even if it's only "to be
>continued" to let the
>     reader know that the post has come through in its entirety.
>          Don't use the tab key for indenting. Different word processors
>handle this
>     different ways, some of which don't come out looking so pretty. Use
the
>space bar
>     instead.
>
>     ii. Part 0, Disclaimers, and other notes.
>          When an author has something to say about their story that isn't
>the story itself
>     use a Part 0. This part usually doesn't include any of the story, but
>is instead for
>     disclaimers and anything else the author wants to say. Do not include
>any of the story in
>     this part, as many people delete Part 0 without reading it.
>          When using a universe or characters that weren't created by you,
>make sure to
>     credit the proper owners. Using a universe or characters without
>permission is
>     technically a copyright violation. In the case of fan fiction, many
>creators are willing to
>     look the other direction, but they do deserve credit for their
>inventions.
>          If you're writing/posting a story that contains questionable
>material (homoerotica,
>     excessive vulgarity and/or violence, pornography, etc), include a
>warning in your Part 0
>     *AND* at the beginning of every part containing the questionable
>material, so that
>     readers who don't wish to read it aren't taken by surprise.  In some
>cases, it may be
>     wise to post a 'cleaned up' version of that section as well, so that
>readers aren't forced
>     to miss the entire story or some potentially important plot point.
>
>     iii. Additional suggestions
>          Keep copies of your own work. If you don't deem it worth hanging
>on to, why
>     should anyone else? On a more practical note, many people don't decide
>to read a
>     story until half of it has been posted.  Then they want to track down
>back parts, so
>     they go to the author. If you don't have it, they can't read it.
>          Finish your story before posting it. Or, at least, get the entire
>story plotted out.
>     Then, if you hit a plotting snag you can just go back and fix it
>without anyone being the
>     wiser. This also saves you the embarrassment of deciding you don't
want
>to continue a
>     story being posted, for whatever reason.
>          If you ask for feedback, be prepared to accept it. Not everyone
is
>going to like
>     everything you write. Some may even tell you so. If someone takes the
>time to gives
>     you honest criticism, even if it's harsh, then they have obviously
seen
>something worth
>     improving. Disagreement does not equal flame.
>          Likewise, if you enjoy something by another author, write and
tell
>them so. If
>     you don't like something, write, tell them so, then offer suggestions
>for improvement.
>     Flaming does not equal criticism. Authors can not be expected to know
>what they're
>     doing wrong until they are told. They also can not be expected to know
>what they're
>     doing right until they are told.
>          Beta-readers are invaluable. If you don't have one or more, get
>some.  They
>     have the task of reading your story before everyone else does. Their
>job is to help you
>     smooth out problems, catch nitpick type errors, and check for overall
>coherency. They
>     may even be willing to help with plotting, grammar, spelling,
character
>invention, etc.
>     Authors have a nasty tendency of getting so close to their work that
>they can't see the
>     story for the words. Beta-readers will help you see your story through
>new eyes.
>
>

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:54:27 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         salymc <salymc@GATEWAY.NET>
Subject:      My Personal Take on Fanfic (Was Justification)
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Jeff said
>>Sigh - I hate doing stuff like that.  Now I feel stripped naked in =
front of the 302 recipients on the list.<<

Hubba, Hubba, Jeff!

Excuse me.  I mean, I agree with Jeff.  In the beginning, I read a lot =
more fanfic than I do now.  However, much of it got very repetitive.  =
And so, originality, a good issue, an interesting conflict, is what =
currently draws me in....  Not that it didn't before.  I was just far =
less selective.  For many, I think that's indicative of exploring any =
new interest.  You jump in and wallow a great deal, and then when you've =
had your fill, you realize that you'd like to be slightly more selective =
about wallowing -- become a connoisseur; )

Writing is far more complicated, although probably less so than some guy =
who did a "doctoral dissertation" on it might suggest.  I would never =
have written a word without the Lois and Clark list -- without the =
support system as well as a desire to show my stuff amongst a group of =
people who I grew to care about.  I've watched other TV shows before =
which captured my attention as much as L&C has, but I never did a thing =
about it.  The difference for me was the list, the interaction, the need =
to test my abilities against others.  It was more about me and the list, =
than about the show.   It was more about watching something in tandem =
with others than just simply watching something I liked.  After all, I =
can honestly say that L&C isn't the best thing I've seen on TV, but its =
the only show I watched and discussed and debated with hundreds of =
others every week.  If I had done the same with House of Elliott or =
Poldark, or the Buccaneers, or whatever, perhaps I would have written =
fanfic about them as well.

I think doing something just for oneself is fine, but, without the =
ability to share it with people who are open to accepting it -- or you =
-- it's rather empty.  Sort of like having no supporters at a baseball =
game or no family and friends at graduation. =20

I never tried to correct anything specifically about the show, although =
I certainly didn't like everything they did.  I never tried to rewrite =
an episode or fill in a missing scene, but on a very general level, I =
realize I did try to answer one nagging doubt.  And, that was, the =
concern that Lois and Clark would become dull if they acknowledged their =
love and "settled down".  To make it even more challenging, I placed =
them in the burbs, with children, two careers, a nagging mother-in-law, =
nosy neighbors, etc.  (What TV considers death for romance.)  I also =
gave them doubts about their relationship.  Some people don't care for =
that, but I feel that every relationship requires a certain amount of =
steady attention, of massaging, of room for growth with the =
understanding that growing pains are included in the mix.  In my opinion =
there are no guarantees,  not even regarding Lois and Clark's ability to =
maintain their relationship despite their best intentions.  We saw that =
on the show, and I think that's pretty much a fact of life, Superman or =
no.

As for the specific stories I wrote, I started out with the premise =
above but I explored it in three different ways -- trying out different =
"genres" or styles of story telling.  The first (Something's Missing) =
was a straightforward drama with a villainous A plot and a B plot that =
-- I hope -- complimented each other.  (Sort of like what happens in an =
episode, only much more longwinded.)<g>  The second story (Love as a =
Blonde) was a comedy.  The third (Taken) was more of an exploration of =
Lois' psyche -- a psychological drama/fantasy if you will.  I modeled =
this construction loosely -- very, very loosely<g> -- on Robertson =
Davies' "Deptford Trilogy."  These are three novels (Fifth Business, the =
Manticore, and World of Wonders) which take a set of characters and plot =
developments and look at them from three different perspectives -- thus, =
highlighting different aspects of the "same" story.  In "S'sM", I looked =
at Lois and Clark's marital problems and family growing pains with an =
emphasis on their children and their love life.  In "LaaB", I emphasized =
their careers.  In "Taken", the emphasis was on Lois' anxieties.   But =
in each of the stories, the other issues from the other stories were =
also running in the background.  Thus, each was completely different, =
and yet the same.  (Does this make any sense?)

Of course, the Season 5 episode (Charity Begins at Home) had separate =
requirements based upon the strictures of the season. However, I still =
generally did what I wanted.<g>  I knew I had to have Lois at a certain =
stage in her pregnancy, I had to include one or two items of continuity =
needed by my fellow writers, and I had to include a baby shower.  =
Everything else was up for grabs.  I chose to make it a comedy because I =
felt that the season needed more laughs<g>.

I've never written a so-called "request fic".  I guess because no one's =
ever asked me to<g>. But, I suppose, the closest thing I've come to it =
is the story I'm writing now, (Little Man, Super).  Those who read my =
first two stories seemed to be interested in knowing more about the son =
I created for L&C and how they were going to deal with his possible =
superness.  That story will be my answer to those questions.

Sandy
salymc@gateway.net

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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Jeff said</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&gt;&gt;Sigh - I hate doing stuff like that.&nbsp; =
Now I feel=20
stripped naked in front of the 302 recipients on the=20
list.&lt;&lt;<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hubba, Hubba, Jeff!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Excuse me.&nbsp; I mean, I agree =
with=20
Jeff.&nbsp; In the beginning, I read a lot more fanfic than I do =
now.&nbsp;=20
However, much of it got very repetitive.&nbsp; And so, originality, a =
good=20
issue, an interesting conflict, is what currently draws me in....&nbsp; =
Not that=20
it didn't before.&nbsp; I was just far less selective.&nbsp; For many, I =
think=20
that's indicative of exploring any new interest.&nbsp; You jump in and =
wallow a=20
great deal, and then when you've had your fill, you realize that you'd =
like to=20
be slightly more selective about wallowing -- become a connoisseur;=20
)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Writing is far more complicated, =
although=20
probably less so than some guy who did a &quot;doctoral =
dissertation&quot; on it=20
might suggest.&nbsp; I would never have written a word without the Lois =
and=20
Clark list -- without the support system as well as a desire to show my =
stuff=20
amongst a group of people who I grew to care about.&nbsp; I've watched =
other TV=20
shows before which captured my attention as much as L&amp;C has, but I =
never did=20
a thing about it.&nbsp; The difference for me was the list, the =
interaction, the=20
need to test my abilities against others.&nbsp; It was more about me and =
the=20
list, than about the show.&nbsp;&nbsp; It was more about watching =
something in=20
tandem with others than just simply watching something I liked.&nbsp; =
After all,=20
I can honestly say that L&amp;C isn't the best thing I've seen on TV, =
but its=20
the only show I watched and discussed and debated with hundreds of =
others every=20
week.&nbsp; If I had done the same with House of Elliott or Poldark, or =
the=20
Buccaneers, or whatever, perhaps I would have written fanfic about them =
as=20
well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I think doing something just for oneself is fine, =
but, without=20
the ability to share it with people who are open to accepting it -- or =
you --=20
it's rather empty.&nbsp; Sort of like having no supporters at a baseball =
game or=20
no family and friends at graduation.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I never tried to correct anything specifically about =
the show,=20
although I certainly didn't like everything they did.&nbsp; I never =
tried to=20
rewrite an episode or fill in a missing scene, but on a very general =
level, I=20
realize I did try to answer one nagging doubt.&nbsp; And, that was, the =
concern=20
that Lois and Clark would become dull if they acknowledged their love =
and=20
&quot;settled down&quot;.&nbsp; To make it even more challenging, I =
placed them=20
in the burbs, with children, two careers, a nagging mother-in-law, nosy=20
neighbors, etc.&nbsp; (What TV considers death for romance.)&nbsp; I =
also gave=20
them doubts about their relationship.&nbsp; Some people don't care for =
that, but=20
I feel that every relationship requires a certain amount of steady =
attention, of=20
massaging, of room for growth with the understanding that growing pains =
are=20
included in the mix.&nbsp; In my opinion there are no guarantees,&nbsp; =
not even=20
regarding Lois and Clark's ability to maintain their relationship =
despite their=20
best intentions.&nbsp; We saw that on the show, and I think that's =
pretty much a=20
fact of life, Superman or no.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As for the specific stories I wrote, =
I started=20
out with the premise above but I explored it in three different ways -- =
trying=20
out different &quot;genres&quot; or styles of story telling.&nbsp; The =
first=20
(Something's Missing) was a straightforward drama with a villainous A =
plot and a=20
B plot that -- I hope -- complimented each other.&nbsp; (Sort of like =
what=20
happens in an episode, only much more longwinded.)&lt;g&gt;&nbsp; The =
second=20
story (Love as a Blonde) was a comedy.&nbsp; The third (Taken) was more =
of an=20
exploration of Lois' psyche -- a psychological drama/fantasy if you =
will.&nbsp;=20
I modeled this construction loosely -- very, very loosely&lt;g&gt; -- on =

Robertson Davies' &quot;Deptford Trilogy.&quot;&nbsp; These are three =
novels=20
(Fifth Business, the Manticore, and World of Wonders) which take a set =
of=20
characters and plot developments and look at them from three different=20
perspectives -- thus, highlighting different aspects of the =
&quot;same&quot;=20
story.&nbsp; In &quot;S'sM&quot;, I looked at Lois and Clark's marital =
problems=20
and family growing pains with an emphasis on their children and their =
love=20
life.&nbsp; In &quot;LaaB&quot;, I emphasized their careers.&nbsp; In=20
&quot;Taken&quot;, the emphasis was on Lois' anxieties.&nbsp;&nbsp; But =
in each=20
of the stories, the other issues from the other stories were also =
running in the=20
background.&nbsp; Thus, each was completely different, and yet the =
same.&nbsp;=20
(Does this make any sense?)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Of course, the Season 5 episode (Charity Begins at =
Home) had=20
separate requirements based upon the strictures of the season. However, =
I still=20
generally did what I wanted.&lt;g&gt;&nbsp; I knew I had to have Lois at =
a=20
certain stage in her pregnancy, I had to include one or two items of =
continuity=20
needed by my fellow writers, and I had to include a baby shower.&nbsp;=20
Everything else was up for grabs.&nbsp; I chose to make it a comedy =
because I=20
felt that the season needed more laughs&lt;g&gt;.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I've never written a so-called &quot;request =
fic&quot;.&nbsp;=20
I guess because no one's ever asked me to&lt;g&gt;. But, I suppose, the =
closest=20
thing I've come to it is the story I'm writing now, (Little Man, =
Super).&nbsp;=20
Those who read my first two stories seemed to be interested in knowing =
more=20
about the son I created for L&amp;C and how they were going to deal with =
his=20
possible superness.&nbsp; That story will be my answer to those=20
questions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Sandy</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:salymc@gateway.net">salymc@gateway.net</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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