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Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:34:39 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         Anne Carlson <ACdrift@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fanfic Review: Montrose's Toast
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Hi All,

I thought I'd try again and jump into one of these fanfic discussions.  I
certainly enjoyed Phil Atcliffe's "Montrose's Toast" when he posted it here
awhile back.  I wanted to ask if Phil had scanned (or could) that picture
from
issue #2 of "Starslayer" that is the focus of his story.  I wanted to see it
right after I finished reading "Montrose's Toast" some time ago - but
haven't
had a chance to look for it.

This thought about the picture was brought to mind again when Sandy wrote a
comment concerning Clark's behavior:

<<Beyond writing technique, the characterizations were very good.  I was a
little taken aback at times by Clark, however, and I wondered if that had
anything to do with the male point of view as opposed to the typical female
view I am used to reading.  For instance, I was especially surprised by
Clark's behavior when he takes Lois off to a secluded location after he
tells her the big secret.  Once there, in a fit of emotion amidst their
intense conversation, the following occurs:

[snip scene from "Montrose's Toast" where Clark displays Lois to the world]

Boy, I never saw Clark quite like this, and I hesitate to say it's out of
character<g>.  To hold Lois up, like a trophy?  Hmm.>>

Phil wrote in his forward about the unbelievable picture he saw in a comic
book:

<<Actually, I blame Mike Grell (one of my favourite comics
artists). There's a panel in issue #2 of "Starslayer" showing the
Celtic hero, Torin MacQuillon, holding his wife Gwynereth in the
air -- when I first saw it, I wasn't at all sure that a human,
hero or not, could actually *do* that (you have to see the
drawing to understand -- it looks quite beautiful, but it would
be incredibly difficult to hold a woman that way); and when I
came across the comic while I was writing this story, I couldn't
get the image of Clark holding Lois like that (now, *he* could do
it!) out of my head, and that led to the "dance" on the beach...
and most of the rest of the story flowed from that. Strange are
the mental processes of writers...>>

I know how many people have written about how favorite songs remind them of
L&C.  This seems to be the same thing.  I would like to see this picture.
Can
anyone help me find it?

Thanks,
Anne (ACdrift@aol.com)
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:38:13 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      WARNING: A non-L&C, Longish Post on Female Comedy Writing
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I know the following has nothing to do with L&C, but it's somewhat humorous
and may be of interest to a group of (mostly) women writers.   Besides,
Peace encouraged me.  Oh....  One other thing, since I did not write this
essay, no one should feel the need to rebut *me*.  (That should save some
keystrokes.)

BROAD COMEDY  by Jenny Bicks

     Somewhere out there in the universe is a very funny woman named Kerry
O'Brien.  Actually, I'm assuming she's still funny.  The last time I saw
her we were three and best friends at All Souls nursery school.  My report
cards attest to our joint comedy prowess:  we appear to have spent most of
our time rolling around on the floor cracking each other up.  Or putting on
"movie shows" where we would make the rest of the class sit quietly in neat
rows and watch as we performed our shtick in the block corner (trying out
the show in the sticks, as it were).
     At four we split up the act and I went solo to an all-girls school.
There, with a drama department devoid of boys, I was able to sink my teeth
into the choicest comedy roles, and on a real stage no less.  My
gravedigger in "Hamlet" was rivaled only by my bad drunk in a bad fedora in
"Ten Little Indians".  We were such smart girls.  But we were so naive:  no
one ever bothered to tell us women weren't meant to be funny.
     Not surprisingly, ten years later I found myself on a shrink's couch
uttering these fateful words:  "If I could just be a comedy writer I'd be
so happy."  I am now a Hollywood sitcom writer.  Studios, on an alarmingly
regular basis, pay me to be funny.  I'm pretty sure they know I'm a woman.
And I wouldn't necessarily say I'm happy.  Call me bemused.
     My first hint that I wasn't in comedy Kansas anymore came when my
agent phoned me to tell me about my first break.  "Mango Man," (all sitcom
titles have been changed to protect the innocent and the guilty) she said,
"is very interested in you.  You're the best woman they've read."  "The
best woman?" I asked.   "Sure," she said, exasperated.  "They had to hire a
woman.  You're the best.  (Pause)  What.  You're not happy."  "No," I
explain in my best girls'-school logic.  "I'm not a funny woman.  I'm just
funny.  Period."  "Welcome to Hollywood," said my agent.  "Go to the gym.
We'll do lunch tomorrow and talk."
     What I learned that day has stuck with me.  The female writer quota,
like male waxing, is a lot more prevalent in Hollywood than you'd care to
know.  What's fascinating is that while sitcoms will fight over a handful
of women writers, once hired they rarely know what to do with us. We're
like that goldfish you diligently tossed rings to win at the school fair:
once you got it home you realized you have nothing to put it in and you
have no idea what it eats.
     There is an unwritten understanding in sitcoms.  Women are very good
at coming up with stories and writing "treacle scenes" (that ubiquitous
part of any bad sitcom, usually act 2, scene 3, when someone says "I think
we need to talk.")  They are also good to have around to answer general
questions about the female anatomy and to field fashion questions.  ("No,
Amanda can't wear linen in that dinner scene.  It's December.")  What
women, in general, are not hired for is the real stuff of comedy:  jokes.
     For the most part, writer's rooms are still the denizens of young male
writers practicing what I call the Stooges Principle:  if you like the
Three Stooges, you're funny and can bring in your toys and play.  If you
don't, you're probably a girl and have cooties.  Since appreciation of the
Three Stooges does, I'm scared to admit, alarmingly often divide [sic] down
gender lines, this rule has been quite effective at keeping most women at
[sic] the comedy water cooler.  (By the way:  note how many times a Three
Stooges joke makes it into your favorite sitcom. They're stealthy.)
     Recently I had a (male) boss tell me, point blank, that women aren't
funny.  When I pointed out to him that he hired me to be funny and, last
time I checked, I was a woman, he thought for a moment and then answered
with boss-like aplomb:  "Yeah, but you're not a woman."  With that he
turned on his heels and exited, off to make his next executive decision.
On more than one occasion I have had the following "compliment" from a
fellow male writer:  "You're good.  You write like a guy."  What they mean
is:  I'm confused.  You're actually funny and you have breasts.
     Male writers aren't the only ones I'm confusing.  While comedy has
done wonders for my check book, it has been hell on my dance card.  As my
friend Karen likes to point out, being a woman in this business is like
playing the children's game "Careers."  You get sixty points and you get to
decide between a family and career.  Unfortunately, the guys still get
both.
     I have a friend here in L.A.  He is neurotic.  He is losing his hair.
He wears bad clothes.  He is a classic nebbish.  He is also a TV Producer.
And women flock to him like swallows to Capistrano.  On any given day he is
entertaining another would-be model, or struggling actress.  His position
and paycheck shriek "big break" to this [sic] girls.  In Hollywood, a guy's
producing credit on "Seinfeld" is better than any Spanish Fly.
     Now when you're a female comedy writer, it doesn't exactly work the
same way.  Here's the scenario.  You enter a bar.  You think you look
pretty good.  A man with a goatee approaches you.  (In Hollywood, a goatee
is a necessity.  Like milk or toilet paper.)  You trade meaningful glances.
He approaches.  You flirt madly.  He asks what you do.  Women writers have
learned to answer this question as if discussing the very ill:  "I write
(hushed whisper) comedy."
     There is a long pause. During this pause he is thinking the following:
"She's probably gay.  She's too smart.  She won't laugh at my jokes.  Oh
God, she probably makes more money than me.  Hey, maybe she has another gay
friend and the three of us could....  Whoa, is that Michelle Pfeiffer?"  He
exits quickly to the opposite end of the bar. Really.  This happens.
     Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the men of Tinseltown.  There are
plenty of women happy to uphold the stereotype.  Why, right now there are
two very successful comediennes with hit shows who are very vocal about not
wanting women writers on their staffs.  Both have been victims of bad men
throughout their lives.  One speaks out against domestic violence.
Ironically, while society has come to uncomfortable terms with the image of
women being punched, women doing the punch lines still scare them.
     Conversely, not all men are scared of funny women.  God bless them.
In fact, my first benefactor was a man of some stature.  It was Robert
Lowell, the famous poet.  I was five.  He was judging a smart writing
contest I entered with a touching poem in verse about a crab with a weight
problem.  He found my piece joyous and effervescent and funny.  And better
than the boys.  I won.  But then again, he was clinically crazy at the time
and I had a pageboy haircut so it probably doesn't count.
     I have a recurring dream.  Kerry O'Brien and I are running a show.  I
enter the writer's room and it is full of bright, funny women.  (Okay, and
some enlightened men.)  We don't spend hours writing jokes about PMS.  We
don't talk endlessly about our sexual conquests.  We write brilliant, witty
repartee for a brilliant, witty sitcom that wins many brilliant, shiny
awards.  Then we go home to our husbands who have spent all day polishing
our Emmys.  And we make them laugh till they cry.
                                  ******

>From "Creme de la Femme:  The Best of Contemporary Women's Humor,"
(copyright 1997).
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:26:44 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "Survival Guide to Electronic Fanfic"
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In a message dated 98-06-10 11:24:10 EDT, you write:

<< Everyone else -- go read this!  This FAQ is an excellent "how-to" guide
 on writing, posting, and reading fanfic.  I highly recommend it.  :) >>

I agree.  When Rhen ran the old list, there was a guide sent out to those
who
newly joined on how to best format a story so that it wouldn't spam all over
the place with weird line breaks and strange symbols appearing in the text.

It's funny too how universal some story themes are (the FAQ cautioned
against
writing fic involving the real actors).  Since Star Trek and the old old
days
of fanfic, there have been stories where the real actors find themselves
somehow transposed with the characters they portray.  I've seen it in
X-Files
fanfic as well. Time travel stories and alternate dimension stories are also
common, though with L&C, of course, it's part of the show's canon, but
doesn't
suit other fanfic very well where that isn't the case.  Oh, and 'Mary Sue'
fanfic where a writer puts himself/herself or other 'fans' in the story.
Anyway, the FAQ is an excellent guide:  http://BUCKAROO-BONSAI-
TREE.MIT.EDU/Interrim/margaret.htm

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:58:31 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Three New Round Robins :)
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In a message dated 98-06-15 05:53:42 EDT, you write:

<< Thank you, IRC writers & editors, for all your hard work! :-) >>

I wanted to thank *you*, Pam for the thanks.  I think the main reason round
robin exists at all, beyond liking writing with other writers, is that it's
a
lot like live theater<g>  However it's also like improv theater because you
have to make it up as you go along.  Most of us who write round robins know
there are people who don't like that genre.  As a writing genre round robins
can't hope to have either the cohesiveness or time necessary to be quite as
clear as a fanfic written by a single author who might take weeks compared
to
hours to write a story, but the one neat thing is, even if no one reads it
after it's posted to the fanfic list, we at least had an audience already on
the IRC<g>  So I also wanted to thank you just for taking the time to read
what we wrote and took the time to comment.

>>>I'll read Jury Duty soon, and may even comment on it <g>  <<

I have only one thing to say on this story, 'be kind'<g>  Seriously, the
title
'Jury Duty' became prophetic since so many writers ducked out on the
story<g>
A couple of writers from Germany dropped out because they didn't feel
familiar
enough with the American jury system, and then the only lawyer we had on the
channel (hi, Eileen ;) had to leave.  That just left me and Chris Paterson,
and so the story ended up a lot shorter than planned and with something of a
quick, almost hasty conclusion<g> There's also a few fanfics that never have
and likely never will see the light of day on the fanfic list because they
didn't gel, but the pleasure of writing them with other writers, and just
the
fun of it, can't be taken away.

thanks again,

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:32:46 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: NEW FANFIC: JURY DUTY: Part 2 of 2
In-Reply-To:  <1eac216a.35845921@aol.com>
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At 07:13 PM 6/14/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Jury Duty continued from part 1

Why does Clark have to sneak in to Lois' hotel,
Don't sequestered jurors get conjugal visits?

Have any of the writers actually been on jury duty?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
|  "You decide what you feel heaven is worth" - Deborah Gibson, TWYH  |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:57:48 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Chris P <CP13607@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: NEW FANFIC: JURY DUTY: Part 2 of 2
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In a message dated 06/16/98 1:32:07 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU writes:

<< Why does Clark have to sneak in to Lois' hotel,
 Don't sequestered jurors get conjugal visits?

 Have any of the writers actually been on jury duty?
  >>
I had just finished a stint on jury duty when this idea came up, so a lot of
what we wrote is very true to life...the boredom, etc.  No, jurors do not
get
conjugal visits if they are sequestered. They can't even read newspapers or
watch the news unless anything relating to the trial has been cut out.
What's
even harder, you can't discuss the case with anyone, even fellow jurors
unless
you are actually in the room set aside for deliberations. I can see being a
juror driving Lois right up the wall, let alone being separated from her
hubby. <g>

Chris
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:10:48 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: NEW FANFIC: JURY DUTY: Part 2 of 2
In-Reply-To:  <de823961.3585d11d@aol.com>
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At 09:57 PM 6/15/98 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 06/16/98 1:32:07 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
>gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU writes:
>
><< Why does Clark have to sneak in to Lois' hotel,
> Don't sequestered jurors get conjugal visits?
>
> No, jurors do not get
>conjugal visits if they are sequestered.
>

Which state are you referring to?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
|  "You decide what you feel heaven is worth" - Deborah Gibson, TWYH  |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:14:56 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Chris P <CP13607@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: NEW FANFIC: JURY DUTY: Part 2 of 2
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In a message dated 06/16/98 2:10:28 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU writes:

<< Which state are you referring to?
  >>

I'm in California.

Chris
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:08:29 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         No Name Available <DarlaW@AOL.COM>
Subject:      unsubscribe/subscribe
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Sorry I seem to have lost my notes on subscribing & unsubscribing to this
list.  Can someone email me privately with the directions?

Thanks much....my email is getting to big to handle with one account! <g>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:30:12 -0500
Reply-To:     kbrown@webmart.net
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Kathy Brown <kbrown@TOOLCITY.NET>
Subject:      Email change for KathyB and [Re: Female Comedy Writing]
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Just to let everyone know, my email address has changed.  Effective
immediately,
you can reach me at:

<kbrown@webmart.net>

Yes, I am still sending this from my Toolcity address.  The account is paid
through the
end of June, and while I've switched over all of my other mailing lists,
discussion lists, personal email, etc., to Webmart, the Fanfic List is still
pending.  (Hello Farah!  Are you out there??  Approve me already!  <g>)

While I'm here, though, I'll thank Sandy for scanning/typing the article on
Female Comedy Writers.  It was a very interesting read

Kathy

--
______________________
Kathy Brown
kbrown@webmart.net   <-------------  Please note new address!!  :)

KathyB on IRC
______________________
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:18:24 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Fanfic Review: Montrose's Toast - Reply, Part 1
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> I was a little taken aback at times by Clark, however, and I wondered if
that had anything to
do with the male point of view as opposed to the typical female view I am
used to reading. <

>>>Quite likely. For example, a common plot twist in a lot of fanfic (and I
_think_ it's pretty much exclusive to female-written stuff) goes like this:
Clark tells Lois the big secret, she hits the roof, and he just stands
there and takes it, unable to defend or justify himself while she rampages
about and then stomps off in a furious huff. While it can be argued that
this is in character, or could be, it's not the only possible response, and
the continual repetition got on my nerves<<<

It's been such a long time since I've read "revelation" stories, that I
honestly can't remember how most writers have handled it.  I'm sure you're
right, however.  And, I have no problem with Clark emoting or defending
himself.  (As a matter of fact, he did this in WHALTTA, and I definitely
would have him do so if I had written such a story.)

That being said ...

*********
> For instance, I was especially surprised by Clark's behavior when he
takes Lois off to a secluded location after he tells her the big secret.
Once there, in a fit of emotion amidst their intense conversation, the
following occurs:

[Snip aerial pas de deux description]

Boy, I never saw Clark quite like this, and I hesitate to say it's out of
character<g>. To hold Lois up, like a trophy? Hmm. <

>>>_Not_ a trophy. A prize, perhaps, but not one that he's earned or been
given -- yet. Something (well, someone) of unequalled value that he wants
to show to the universe, so that it knows just whom he's talking about.
Like he said, _This_ is the one!<<<

**********

this move of Clark's seemed a bit neanderthal to me.  I'm surprised Lois
said nothing in the midst of it, like "Uh, Clark.... Um, what are you
doing, Clark?  Uh ... Remember you love me.  Don't do anything silly, like
toss me into the sun or into orbit or into a trash dumpster...."  <BG>

>>>This is Clark venting again....  he's probably rather surprised at what
comes out, but out it must come.<<<

I'll give you that.  Love certainly makes people do strange things.

> Another interesting, but funny, difference I noted (and this is just an
observation) was the complete absence of any description of what Lois was
wearing.<g> In comparison, Clark's wardrobe is described in detail. For
instance, on their first date, as in Lucky Leon, Lois leaves work early to
get ready and Clark declares her "lovely". That's all we know -- which is
fine. As for
Clark... [Snip Clark's black-on-black outfit]

>>>Partly this is another male thing....  And, to be honest, I didn't think
it was relevant. Lois can look gorgeous when she wants to (e.g., the end of
SG <howls>), so saying that was enough; I only described Clark's clothes to
make the point that he was all in black. This is a camouflage thing -- if
he's going to be doing super-stuff out of the suit, then he won't want to
be seen....

FWIW, there's a quite short description of Lois "dressing to kill" in
another of my stories, namely "Much Ado About..." Maybe that'll satisfy the
clothes hounds..?<<<

The point I was making was very tongue-in-cheek.  I'll put it plainly.  I
don't give one iota whether a writer describes what the characters wear --
unless it is absolutely necessary to the scene, e.g., nfic comes to
mind.<g>  However, I noticed that you never described Lois' clothes, in
this story, while going into great detail regarding Clark and I took off
with it,  (the point, not the clothes) *not* to voice my disappointment but
to rib some of my fellow writers who *must* describe Lois' outfit even when
it's totally unnecessary. ; )

>1) Lois' winning bid on Clark was $20,000. How would she be able to "throw
away" this kind of money? <

>>>I have to pass the buck on this one. The 20-grand figure comes from the
original story (to which MT is a sequel) "Sold!", by Erin Dawn McInnis, and
I had to work from that. It bugged me, too,<<<

Ah, I forgot Erin's story....  In any case, I kept waiting for Clark to
volunteer to help Lois pay for him.

>Self-confident? I certainly would not call Mayson that, at least in terms
of her personal life. To the contrary, she seemed very needy, which calls
to mind other personality quirks that I can identify with<g>.

>>>Depends on what you consider to be confidence, and how that confidence
is expressed. It seems to me that Mayson's forthright approach to Clark
indicates that she had enough self-confidence to make a grab for what she
wanted.<<<

I would with you if our only exposure to Mayson had been CoM.  (Actually, I
think I would argue that in CoM, Mayson was in danger of being on the wrong
side of professionalism.  If she were a man, Clark could have charged her
with sexual harrassment.)  Anyway, in subsequent episodes, she continues to
pursue Clark despite his lack of encouragement.  Granted, he was very
namby-pamby about turning her down which does give her reason to hope.
But, we are never given evidence that he ever pursued her, went out of his
way to be with her, or showed more than an embarrassing unwillingness to
say no.  She should have taken the hint.  The fact that she didn't is not
the mark of self-confidence as much as desperate clinging.

>>This is in stark contrast to Lois, who, as self-confident as she is
professionally, was very tentative in trying for a relationship with
_anyone_ (especially Clark). In my ignorance, the two women seem to be
about equal in that respect; it's just how their different personalities
affect their relationships with Clark.<<

I think you've stumbled on to an interesting comparison:  that between the
Lois/Superman relationship and the Mayson/Clark relationship.  One could
argue that Lois pursued Superman in the same way Mayson pursued Clark.
Supposedly, CK/Sman did not want Lois thinking of him romantically as Sman,
but he did very little to discourage her -- for the most part.  In fact,
unlike the Mayson/Clark relationship, Superman does seek Lois out (even in
non-emergencies<g>).  And, he romances her as Superman.  He does give her
encouragement.  So, you can understand Lois' persistence.  When she finally
does ask him if there's hope for them in BatP, he says not, and she
immediately turns to Luthor (and then when *that* doesn't work out she
turns to Clark. Jeez!<g>)  Unfortunately, we never had the opportunity of
finding out how Mayson would have reacted if Clark had finally told her he
wasn't interested.

In any case, the difference between them appeared to be that Mayson
couldn't take no for an answer and Lois could (or at least, Lois was
willing to put aside the pursuit of "unrequited" love in an attempt at real
love, which presumably is healthier and more indicative of self-worth).

4) >Clark doesn't know Kryptonese, although it *does* bear a remarkable
resemblance to English. <

>>>Again, I don't think this is really relevant. If anything, Clark is
showing his larger world view here; he's Kryptonian (i.e., from another
planet), so his inarticulateness is wider-ranging than just Earth, even if
he can't speak anything other than Earth languages. It's more a matter of
emphasis than anything else -- and, once again, it reminds Lois just who
and what she's dealing with.<<<

Touche.  I admit to making an unfair criticism.

I'll complete this in a second e-mail
Sandy
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:28:37 -0400
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From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Fanfic Review: Montrose's Toast - Reply, Part 2
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5) >"....for she knew that *she* was the important stakes in his great
gamble. He could lose his privacy, his identity, his friends and family,
but that would only be secondary to his losing her; *that* would be his
true loss, to which all else would only be added sorrow -- painful, but as
nothing to the real wound.<<

>> Lois, my dear! You flatter yourself. Surely the loss of Clark's family
would be no less painful than losing you! Different, yes. But, secondary?
<<

>>>Yes, secondary. This may be a male thing, but I know just how Clark is
feeling (well, I should, shouldn't I? <g>). Lois, with perhaps a little
author-given insight, has deduced this correctly. _She_ is the most
important thing in the universe to him. His parents are very dear to him,
but he's moved on from them. That's what men _do_ -- as in the old saying:
"A son's a son till he takes a wife..." It doesn't mean that he isn't close
to his parents, that he doesn't love them as much as he ever did, that he
won't help them and ask them for help, but he's a man now, and he wants his
_own_ family -- specifically, his own mate, which means Lois.<<<

Oh no!  If it's a male thing, then how can I possibly understand it<g>?...
Seriously though, a person's feelings are very individualized, and one
cannot make general statements about how all men feel.  Nor can I argue
with you about the legitimacy of your own feelings.  With regard to Clark,
however, I believe we can conclude that his relationship with his parents
is almost unique.  He is very close to them if only by virtue of the fact
that, throughout his life, there have been no other people with whom he
felt he could risk confiding.  Undoubtedly, there are perfectly ordinary
men who are very close to their parents, but Clark's superness intensified
that familial bond, creating quite a special relationship that almost
compares to no other.

Regardless of that, as evidenced by the Alt-Clark episode, he does manage
to go on without his parents.  He is less happy, less emotionally healthy,
but he goes on.  Furthermore, the same episode gave us an indication that
he could even (gulp) go on without Lois -- both his Alt-Lois and the Lois
he actually gets a chance to meet and fall in love with.  As in the case of
his parents, without Lois, Clark is less happy and seems to be in a
permanent state of incompleteness.  However, he goes on.   Most normal
people return to their lives when they lose loved ones, but, when it comes
to Superman, arguably, it is more vital that he do so.  As long as he has
the capability to help others, I can't see Clark cashing in his chips and
allowing the "world to fall apart".  Persevering against the odds is what
makes a hero.  Sometimes he puts the needs of others above his own.

As for the adage you quote, "A son is a son till he takes a wife", you
haven't finished it....  "But, a daughter's a daughter all of her life."
Can one, then, argue that women value their parents over their husbands?
(Actually, sometimes I think this saying has been conveniently used by
brothers to argue that sisters should be the one to build the
"mother-in-law suites" onto their homes, much to the dismay of
brothers-in-law.  And, frankly, in many cases, daughters are usually the
caregivers to elderly parents....  Oops, unforgiveable gender stereotype
here.<g>)

>>....Now, you can make of that what you will, but the point is that to
many men, their mates _are_ the most important person in the world to them.
A man can lose his parents, siblings and even children, but as long as he
has his mate, he can carry on; lose _her, and the world has been shattered.
This is by no means universal, but it's true, and I felt that Clark would
(or could) be one of those men.<<

Yes ... to get back to your point, think about this....  in many societies
-- primitive, ancient, as well as the modern world's own recent past -- it
is the woman who leaves *her* family to journey to that of the man's.  He
doesn't leave his village, his people, his *parents* for *her*.  I suppose
this says more about the imagined worth to society of males over females
than it says about who has the greater emotional ties to one's parents.  I
will grant you, though, there are some men who appear to be devastated to
the point of hopelessness at the death (or other departure) of their wives.
Perhaps men need women more than women need men.  I am also amazed at how
often men, subconsciously, seem to "look for" their mothers in their future
mate.  I am not necessarily saying that they, literally, look for a
physical resemblance -- although that happens too<g>.  But, they appear to
look for an idealized "madonna/whore" mix that might, indeed, be a merging
of both their little boy need to be nurtured and their adult male need to
be ... <ahem>.

Okay.  That'll be 5 cents, Charlie Brown.

6) >Before Lois could respond to this unusual statement from someone who
normally worked on the Eleanor Roosevelt principle ("If you can't say
anything nice about anyone... come sit by me.")<

>> Oops. St. Eleanor would have never said this or even thought it.... <<

>>>Really? According to one source, she had it embroidered on a sofa
cushion in her drawing room. And "Saint" Eleanor? Hmmm... not from the
history (which, I freely admit, is pretty scanty) that I read.<<<

This was definitely Alice.

As for my St. Eleanor reference, once again, it was tongue-in-cheek.
Although you may not be exposed to this in the U.K., in the U.S. there has
been a great deal of recent discussion about Eleanor Roosevelt's qualities
-- many of it verging on the saintly<g>.  I think I've only heard one
historian, Doris Kearnes Goodwin, recently fault Eleanor, and that was for
turning away from her husband when he most needed her (not that *he* hadn't
turned away from her).  In any case, Eleanor was too kind-hearted, or,
Alice would say, too dull-witted, to have popularized the quote you have in
your story.  I must admit, however.  Although I knew Eleanor hadn't said
it, I wasn't sure who had, and I had to ask around.

The bottomline is, putting quotes in a story is a dangerous thing.  There
is always the chance that some insufferable boob (like myself) will waste
no time pointing out where you are wrong.

>>Which was the whole idea. Thanks muchly, Sandra, for your interesting
comments,<<

Thanks muchly for taking them in the spirit with which they were meant.

>>Phil, looking forward to doing some more writing over the summer<<

Looking forward to doing the reading.
Sandy
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:36:27 -0400
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From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Fanfic Review: Montrose's Toast - Reply, Part 1
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Oh, darn!  This is what I get for sending something out without re-reading
it.....

>>>Depends on what you consider to be confidence, and how that confidence
is expressed. It seems to me that Mayson's forthright approach to Clark
indicates that she had enough self-confidence to make a grab for what she
wanted.<<<

>>I would with you if our only exposure to Mayson had been CoM.<<

Of course, I meant to say, "I would *agree* with you....

The word "agree" doesn't seem to be a great part of my vocabulary, on all
kinds of levels<g>

Sandy
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:26:53 -0800
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From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Review: Montrose's Toast - Reply, Parts 1 thru 3
In-Reply-To:  <61445258.35845240@aol.com>
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Zoomwrote after Phil:
>
><< The run-on stuff is usually deliberate, either because I feel that the
>character is
> babbling (internally or externally) or because I tend to write as if
someone
>is
> reading the text aloud. _More_ semi-colons, etc?! It sometimes worries me
>that
> I use too many of them as it is. >>
>
>I have to admit when I read Montrose's Toast, it was the emotional impact
and
>not the mechanics of writing I remember, and so how ever you wrote the
story,
>it worked for me.  I don't often notice a writer's mechanics unless it's
truly
>bizarre or has a ton of typos or misspellings, etc.  Fanfic, like the
series
>itself, was/is about emotional moments to me, and not about the mechanics
of
>television production.  Besides, I think I'm the run-on sentence champ as
it
>is<g>
>
Being a run-on sentence person myself ... imho, a good story becomes a
*better* story when the mechanics are all running smoothly. In reading
fanfic, I don't mind be "jolted" out of the story once or twice ... but
more than that and the story's history! Phil will be pleased to hear that I
made it through Montrose's Toast *in spite of* his run-on sentences ... I
think he did a much better job mechanics-wise here than in umm ... what's
the name of that Soulmates one of yours, Phil? I *barely* made it through
that one, and in fact, started skimming.

>
>Sandy wrote:
>
>>>Boy, I never saw Clark quite like this, and I hesitate to say it's out of
>character<g>. To hold Lois up, like a trophy? Hmm. <<<
>
>Phil replied:
>
><<_Not_ a trophy<<
>
>I agree, I didn't see Clark holding Lois aloft as a trophy, nor did I see
it
>out of character.  I think Clark could have easily done that scene in
WHALTTA.
>I saw the scene as a proclamation, or declaration of all Lois meant to him;
>showing the cosmos that "this woman" was "the one" who meant *everything*
to
>him.  It's a wonderful scene, and I'd have loved to have seen it on the
>series.
>
I hate to say it -- but this is where I almost put "Montrose's Toast" down.
To me, it read "Lois as a trophy" or a prize or what have you. Clark has
never seemed to me to be that type -- and Lois is certainly not the type to
*allow* it. (Although with super-strength, I guess she didn't have much of
a choice). This is indeed putting Lois on a pedestal, pure and simple. And
while the two plainly adore each other -- they're also very clearly *Equal*
partners. And also, very aware of each other's faults. People who put other
people on pedestals tend to be blind to that other person's faults.

>Phil said, in response to Sandy mentioning a scene where Clark moves so
fast
>that he's literally 'beside himself':
>
>>>Spot the comics reader <g>. <<<
>
>Yeah, I told Georgia I knew that was written by a comic book reader ;) I
like
>putting in some comic book characters that I think might make a transition
to
>L&C's universe, if only in fanfic.  Anyway, I liked the scene and think
Clark
>could have accomplished it on the series, now whether the SFX department
>could, is another matter ;)
>
*grin* If he could shake his molecules, I figured he could appear next to
himself :) says I, the non-comics reader.

>>>>Again, I don't think this is really relevant. If anything, Clark is
showing
>his larger
>world view here; he's Kryptonian (i.e., from another planet), so his
>inarticulateness is wider-ranging than just Earth, even if he can't speak
>anything
>other than Earth languages. It's more a matter of emphasis than anything
else
>--
>and, once again, it reminds Lois just who and what she's dealing with.<<<<
>
>Again, I agree, it wasn't about Krytonian language anymore than it was
about
>English or Spanish, it was about Clark not finding the words in *any*
language
>to express to Lois how much she meant to him.
>
Agree here too.... 'scuse me for the "me too"!

>>>>Really? According to one source, she had it embroidered on a sofa
cushion
>in
>her drawing room. And "Saint" Eleanor?<<<
>
>The best Eleanor Roosevelt quote is "No one can make you feel inferior
without
>your consent." ;)  The other quote is by Alice, but I had to look it up to
>make sure, so don't worry, if Americans have to run to a quotations book to
>make sure, the sentiment of the statement is much more important than who
said
>it anyway ;)
>
Actually, it does matter. We now have a bunch of folcs thinking Eleanor
said that. I certainly didn't know any better until Sandra mentioned it.
You'd be surprised at what people "learn" through their fiction reading. A
quotation is exactly the kind of thing that should be checked by an author
or their editor.

Leanne

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:40:49 -0600
Reply-To:     Erin Klingler <erink@ida.net>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         Erin Klingler <erink@IDA.NET>
Subject:      Need fanfic questions answered
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Help!  I'm in the middle of a fanfic, and need help with a couple of
details.

*First of all, what was the name of the street where the theater was that CK
did the piece on the razing of during the Pilot?  32nd??

*Secondly...what was the name of the Smallville newspaper that CK was
supposedly quitting his job at the Planet for to go and work at in Man of
Steel Bars?  The Smallville Post??

If anyone could answer these for me, I would be forever in your debt. <g>

Thanks!
Erin :)
___________________
(aka ELK on IRC)
erink@ida.net
"The truth is, no one knows how long they've got.  Anyway, it's not the
years that count, it's the moments...right now...as they happen."  CK to LL
in BY
                       *******
"You bet your sweet little chumpy I am."
_________________
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Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:59:41 EDT
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From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
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In a message dated 98-06-16 13:30:11 EDT, you write:

<< Seriously though, a person's feelings are very individualized, and one
 cannot make general statements about how all men feel. >>

But there is clinical data if one wants to delve in that direction, that
supports the notion that the death of a spouse is much more emotionally,
even
physically, devastating to men than women.  There is something called the
'Broken Heart' syndrome.  The two years after the loss of a wife,
particularly
one a man has been married to for several years, can be the two years when
his
life is in the most jeopardy.  Younger men are certainly in less jeopardy
physically (at least in terms of heart attack or other 'natural' causes)
than
older men in this situation, but the suicide rate is signicantly higher than
for other men in their age group.  Physicians and pyschiatrists have both
noted a 'failure to thrive' among these men who have lost their wives.  A
kind
of unwillingness to continue on without the other.

Even leaving the clinical and anecdotal behind, the way the show depicted
Clark Kent, is what I really go by.  I have no doubt that Clark would
continue
to 'exist' if he lost Lois, just as the alternate Clark 'existed', but
that's
quite a different thing from 'living'.   One thing that marks the difference
between 'existing' and 'living' is 'joy'.  Was there any joy in alternate
Clark's life?  If there was, he hid it quite well ;)   Once he met Lois, he
knew instantly what he'd been missing in  his life, and that he would do
whatever he could to redress that void.  The show repeatedly made this
clear.
I have no doubt Clark would go on being Superman if he lost Lois, it would
be
all of Lois he had left to him, but you know, I don't think he'd continue on
being Clark Kent. "There's nothing' there for me, Perry."

>>>this move of Clark's seemed a bit neanderthal to me.  I'm surprised Lois
said nothing in the midst of it, like "Uh, Clark.... Um, what are you
doing, Clark?  Uh ... Remember you love me.  Don't do anything silly, like
toss me into the sun or into orbit or into a trash dumpster...."  <BG><<<

I'd agree throwing Lois in the dumpster was neanderthal.  It equated her
with
garbage, she was trash to be thrown out.  It seemed to reflect St. John's
rather unflattering assessment of Lois in her scripts, but the scene in
Phil's
story was quite different, and the time line was quite different, and
definitely his reason for lifting Lois aloft was quite different<g>  I
remember the scene from Close Encounters where Roy Neery, haunted by the
close
encounter, runs into his yard at night screaming into the sky, "What is
it?!!"
It's an obsession not of his own doing, and so screaming at the cosmic
'powers
that be' seemed the only thing to do.  Clark seems to be, from the pilot
onward, in a similar situation.  In Phil's story, Clark's had it to "here"
(wherever 'here' is) with the deception, the obsession, the unrequited
nature
of the whole thing, but Lois bidding for *Clark* at the auction, and not
Superman, marked some type of turning point for Clark in this story.  It was
time to put all the cards on the table.  He didn't just fly Lois to that
deserted beach and suddenly raise her over his head, he spoke to her at
length
about his feelings before that maneuver.

There's an old movie (yes, I'm in movie reference mode ;) titled The
Enchanted
Cottage.  In this cottage a homely woman and a disfigured man see each other
as whole, and attractive.  It seems a metaphor for the filter love can pull
over our eyes, and admittedly it is a rather treacly movie in spots, but it
was called the 'enchanted' cottage, and not the 'haunted' cottage, because
there is a big difference between the two words.  Somewhere along the line,
Clark stopped being huanted by Lois, and became enahanted by her, and he
wanted to tell "the whole damned universe" ;)

Leanne wrote:

>>>Phil will be pleased to hear that I
made it through Montrose's Toast *in spite of* his run-on sentences ...<<<

I thought the sentence structure complemented the story, giving the feeling
of
thoughts overlaid by the characters.  To each his/her own I suppose ;)

>>>I hate to say it -- but this is where I almost put "Montrose's Toast"
down.
To me, it read "Lois as a trophy" or a prize or what have you. Clark has
never seemed to me to be that type <<<<

You mean when he was forceably flying Lois somewhere and she was fighting
him,
it was okay, but when Lois seemed to enjoy being held aloft, it wasn't?<g>
Sorry, I don't get that.  I saw no objection about the 'kidnapping' but you
objected to this scene where Lois is not yelling or demanding to be put
down.
The only thing I had against either scene is that Clark told Lois to "..stop
thrashing about" because it sounded way too British for Clark to say<g>

>>>This is indeed putting Lois on a pedestal, pure and simple.<<<

Might be a cultural difference here, but I see 'putting someone on a
pedestal'
as what Lois did with Superman 1rst season, even if she couldn't lift him
over
her head<g>

>>>Actually, it does matter. We now have a bunch of folcs thinking Eleanor
said that. I certainly didn't know any better until Sandra mentioned it.
You'd be surprised at what people "learn" through their fiction reading. A
quotation is exactly the kind of thing that should be checked by an author
or their editor.<<<

I agree that a writer should always endeavor to give credit where credit is
due, and make certain the attibution is correct.  It may be a minor
transgression in fanfic and certainly one that can be fixed even at the
archive, but is a much greater problem when say something is overlooked when
a
script is written, fimed and aired and no one caught a glaring omission.
That
happened with All Shook Up.  Bryce Zabel failed to give credit of the basic
story idea (Superman fighting an asteroid and getting amnesia) to Jackson
Gillis who wrote the script Panic in the Sky for the original Adventures of
Superman.  When ASU aired the first time, there was no title credit for
Gillis, but there sure was when ASU ran the second time<g>  Wonder if that
oversight cost Warner Bros any moola? ;)

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:39:25 -0500
Reply-To:     kbrown@webmart.net
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Kathy Brown <kbrown@TOOLCITY.NET>
Subject:      Hand of Fate (Was: Montrose's Toast
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Leanne Shawler wrote:

> > I
> >think he did a much better job mechanics-wise here than in umm ... what's
> >the name of that Soulmates one of yours, Phil? I *barely* made it through
> >that one, and in fact, started skimming.
>

I just have to jump in here.  This is definitely a case where different fans
have
different tastes.  I not only loved Phil's 'Soutmates one' -- it's called
"Hand of
Fate: Soul Mates 2" and it's in the Archive -- but I embarrassed myself (and
Phil)
by gushing all over it when I first read it. <g>   It may be one the best
fanfics
I've read, in fact, which is not a compliment I give lightly.

I wish I could say I've read the story recently enough to give a detailed
review.
Unfortunately, it's been awhile and I don't have time to go back and reread
right
now.  So, in lieu of details about just what I loved about it, I'll make
this
short -- I highly recommend this fanfic.  It's long, but romantic and
interesting.  It provided, for me, a very fun, exciting and satisfying
ending to
Sir Charles and Lady Loisette's tragic fate.

If anyone else has read the story more recently than I, I'd love to hear
other
comments on it.  Am I in the minority here? :)

--
______________________
Kathy Brown
kbrown@webmart.net   <-------------  Please note new address!!  :)

KathyB on IRC
______________________
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:14:51 -0800
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From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fanfic Review: Montrose's Toast - Reply, Part 2
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>
>>>>This is indeed putting Lois on a pedestal, pure and simple.<<<
>
Zoomway responded:

>Might be a cultural difference here, but I see 'putting someone on a
pedestal'
>as what Lois did with Superman 1rst season, even if she couldn't lift him
over
>her head<g>
>
Ah, yes. But wasn't she *wrong* about that? She put Supes on a pedestal and
couldn't see the real guy, Clark, causing hurt, angst and, well, dithering
:) It was her seeing Clark as *Clark*, non-pedestal style that advanced the
relationship. If that had never happened, Lois would've been relegated to
Superman groupie. It was a *crush*, this pedestal putting, and she got over
it -- or rather, she got to know the man behind the Suit before she even
knew he was uh, ... behind the suit.

All of the talk in Phil's fanfic was fine ... it was just this moment that
was out of place for me.

>>>>Actually, it does matter. We now have a bunch of folcs thinking Eleanor
>said that. I certainly didn't know any better until Sandra mentioned it.
>You'd be surprised at what people "learn" through their fiction reading. A
>quotation is exactly the kind of thing that should be checked by an author
>or their editor.<<<
>
>I agree that a writer should always endeavor to give credit where credit is
>due, and make certain the attibution is correct.  It may be a minor
>transgression in fanfic and certainly one that can be fixed even at the
>archive, but is a much greater problem when say something is overlooked
when a
>script is written, fimed and aired and no one caught a glaring omission.
That
>happened with All Shook Up.  Bryce Zabel failed to give credit of the basic
>story idea (Superman fighting an asteroid and getting amnesia) to Jackson
>Gillis who wrote the script Panic in the Sky for the original Adventures of
>Superman.  When ASU aired the first time, there was no title credit for
>Gillis, but there sure was when ASU ran the second time<g>  Wonder if that
>oversight cost Warner Bros any moola? ;)
>
Is that a long way for saying you agree with me? Fanfic, script, novel,
thesis. It's all important. Although, I may say "borrowing" a story idea or
rewriting it without giving credit is plagiarism, not mis-crediting a
source.

Leanne

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:20:54 -0500
Reply-To:     kbrown@webmart.net
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Kathy Brown <kbrown@TOOLCITY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Need fanfic questions answered
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Erin Klingler wrote:

> Help!  I'm in the middle of a fanfic, and need help with a couple of
> details.

Ooo, you're writing? Goody! :)

>
>
> *First of all, what was the name of the street where the theater was
that CK
> did the piece on the razing of during the Pilot?  32nd??

I'm almost positive it was 42nd, but I can't remember if any
cross-street was
mentioned.

> *Secondly...what was the name of the Smallville newspaper that CK was
> supposedly quitting his job at the Planet for to go and work at in Man
of
> Steel Bars?  The Smallville Post??

This sounds like a Zoom question. <g>

I believe, based on my iffy memory, that you are correct in that it was
the
Smallville Post.  Though in the Pilot, doesn't he say he worked for the
Smallville *Press*?  I seem to remember noticing this inconsistency at
the time
of first airing (with only a half season of eps, it was a lot easier to
remember from week to week. <g>).

Any one else have a better memory?

Kathy (curious now, too!)

--
______________________
Kathy Brown
kbrown@webmart.net   <-------------  Please note new address!!  :)

KathyB on IRC
______________________
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:40:54 +0000
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Phillip Atcliffe <P-ATCLIFFE@WPG.UWE.AC.UK>
Subject:      Roosevelt Quotes (was: Montrose's Toast)

Leanne and Zoom wrote:

>>> Actually, it does matter. We now have a bunch of folcs thinking Eleanor
said that. I certainly didn't know any better until Sandra mentioned it.
You'd be
surprised at what people "learn" through their fiction reading. A quotation
is
exactly the kind of thing that should be checked by an author or their
editor.
<<<

> I agree that a writer should always endeavor to give credit where credit
is due,
and make certain the attibution is correct. <

I'd like to point out in passing that _I_ was one of the "bunch of FoLCs"
who
thought (still do, until I can find a reference that says otherwise) that
that quote
was attributable to Eleanor R. (Now _there's_ an unintentional tribute to
the lady
-- not a saint, but a queen? <g>) I had good reason to believe that what I
wrote
was the case, or I'd never have written it -- after all, exactly who said
that is
irrelevant to my story; pedants can change "Eleanor" to "Alice" in the text
and it
won't make an iota of difference to the story.

If I got it wrong, then mea culpa, but it was an honest mistake. As for
checking
it -- well, there's a practical problem there, particularly on this side of
the
Atlantic. Just where do you go to check something like that? I suppose I
could
try Brewer's or the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations -- I may do, now that
the
question's been raised -- but when you _have_ a source that gives the
"wrong"
answer..?

I also hesitate to put that sort of thing onto editors -- voluntary, unpaid
and in it
primarily for the enjoyment that they get out of it -- who have quite enough
to do
as it is, and may not have the appropriate resources available anyway. _I_
do,
but I have a university library "to hand". In this case, the story was seen
by
half-a-dozen or so people before it made it to the archive, and all I ever
got from
them on that point was a ROFL! -- which is all it deserves, IMO. I'm all for
accuracy, but isn't this putting the cart before the horse?

Phil, unoffended by the discussion and hoping that no-one will be offended
by
his input
------------------------------------------------------------
"Sic Transit Gloria Barramundi"
   (Or, So Long and Thanks for All the Fish!)
   -- not Douglas Adams, but me: Phil Atcliffe
                              (p-atclif@uwe.ac.uk)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 07:21:58 -0800
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Roosevelt Quotes (was: Montrose's Toast)
In-Reply-To:  <s5878f53.042@wpg.uwe.ac.uk>
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>Leanne and Zoom wrote:
>
>>>> Actually, it does matter. We now have a bunch of folcs thinking Eleanor
>said that. I certainly didn't know any better until Sandra mentioned it.
>You'd be
>surprised at what people "learn" through their fiction reading. A quotation
is
>exactly the kind of thing that should be checked by an author or their
editor.
><<<
>
>> I agree that a writer should always endeavor to give credit where credit
>>is due,
>and make certain the attibution is correct. <
>
>I'd like to point out in passing that _I_ was one of the "bunch of FoLCs"
who
>thought (still do, until I can find a reference that says otherwise) that
>that quote
>was attributable to Eleanor R. (Now _there's_ an unintentional tribute to
>the lady
>-- not a saint, but a queen? <g>) I had good reason to believe that what I
>wrote
>was the case, or I'd never have written it -- after all, exactly who said
>that is
>irrelevant to my story; pedants can change "Eleanor" to "Alice" in the
>text and it
>won't make an iota of difference to the story.

Sure, it won't make a difference to your story. You could put "Marsha
Bigwiggins" there instead if you liked. It's a minor point that has
probably been discussed ad nauseum here, but still a valid one. I'd be
interested in seeing what the Quotations book, etc turns up!

Leanne

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:34:40 -0400
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Roosevelt Quotes (was: Montrose's Toast)
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>>I'd like to point out in passing that _I_ was one of the "bunch of FoLCs"
who
thought (still do, until I can find a reference that says otherwise) that
that quote
was attributable to Eleanor R. (Now _there's_ an unintentional tribute to
the lady
-- not a saint, but a queen? <g>) I had good reason to believe that what I
wrote
was the case, or I'd never have written it -- after all, exactly who said
that is
irrelevant to my story; pedants can change "Eleanor" to "Alice" in the text
and it
won't make an iota of difference to the story.<<

*******
The proper citing of a quote is not irrelevant.

1)  The following websites (a small sample of those I found) list the quote
>from your story and everyone attributes it to Alice Roosevelt Longworth:

http://www.phnet.fi/public/mamaa1/quotesnf.htm
http://omni.cc.purdue.edu/~raaron/quotea-m.htm
http://www.bemorecreative.com/one/818.htm

2)  The following website is that of an Associate Professor of History at
Monmouth College in Illinois, Dr. Stacy A. Cordery.  One of her research
interests is Alice and a project she is working on is, strangely enough,
entitled, "'Come and Sit By Me':  The Life and Times of Alice Roosevelt
Longworth".

http://www.monm.edu/academic/History/SACordery/sacorderyhome.htm

3)  The funniest website I found to illustrate my point is a website on
"Common Writing Errors"!  Amidst its instructions on commas, it uses the
quote in question and attributes it to Alice:

Use a comma between dependent and main clauses only when the dependent
clause precedes the main clause:  If you can't say anything good about
someone, sit right here by me. (Alice Roosevelt Longworth)

4) If you want to read more about Alice *and* Eleanor, I found the
following book:

"Alice and Eleanor, A Contrast in Style and Purpose" by Sandra R. Curtis

Alice Roosevelt Longworth was acknowledged as the outrageous media star in
the White House during her father's Presidency. When a friend asked whether
Teddy could restrain his daughter, President Roosevelt answered that he
could run the country or Alice, but be couldn't do both.

By contrast, Teddy's niece Eleanor, who was Alice's polar opposite in
personality, also captured the hearts of the country when she entered the
White House 24 years later as First Lady. Shy and deferential, Eleanor came
to politics through her commitment to social justice while flamboyant,
defiant Alice had been weaned on politics. Political and personal rivals,
Alice and Eleanor were intimately connected to the U.S. Presidency through
45 dramatic years. Each learned to wield power effectively through her
unique style and for her distinct purpose.

[the rest SNIPPED]

**************

>>I also hesitate to put that sort of thing onto editors -- voluntary,
unpaid and in it primarily for the enjoyment that they get out of it -- who
have quite enough to do as it is, and may not have the appropriate
resources available anyway. _I_ do, but I have a university library "to
hand". In this case, the story was seen by half-a-dozen or so people before
it made it to the archive, and all I ever got from them on that point was a
ROFL! -- which is all it deserves, IMO. I'm all for accuracy, but isn't
this putting the cart before the horse?<<

No, it's good writing.  Quotes, whether meant for fun or placed in a news
article, should be properly attributed.  If you have a university library
on hand, you should be able to find something on the Roosevelts in it.

I don't expect my stories to be perfect, no matter how many unpaid proofers
have seen it.  And frankly, I agonize over every mistake I make and do my
best to have them corrected.  I hate to admit this for fear of offending my
former proofers, but I've never  *really* relied on them to catch my
errors, although it's very helpful when they do.  When it comes to quotes,
a writer must be particularly careful.  In the real world, *the writer* is
the one who will be sued for misattribution.

>>Phil, unoffended by the discussion and hoping that no-one will be
offended by his input<<

I'm not offended either, just mildly exasperated.  I will, however, make
one correction on a mistake *I* made and that is that Eleanor and Alice
were first cousins, not cousins by marriage.

Well, I'll say no more on this -- publicly, privately, or otherwise.
Sandy
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:47:06 +0000
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Phillip Atcliffe <P-ATCLIFFE@WPG.UWE.AC.UK>
Subject:      COMBO: Roosevelt, pedestals, etc.

Leanne wrote:

> I'd be interested in seeing what the Quotations book, etc turns up!

Would you believe... Sierra Foxtrot Alpha? ("short" for Sweet Fanny Adams,
a.k.a. zip, zilch, nada, not a sausage, abso-fraggin'-lutely nothing!) I'm
not all
that surprised, actually -- the Roosevelt clan, other than the Big Two (see
later),
is a fairly obscure topic outside the US.

Anyway, the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations made no mention of Eleanor,
confining itself to quotes from Teddy R and FDR; the Oxford Dictionary of
_Modern_ Quotations did manage to include the "inferior" quote, but that was
the only one, all else on matters Roosevelt being similar to its sister
dictionary;
a book of 20th Century Quotations, by FS Pepper, only had stuff from FDR;
and
Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable had nothing at all! So much for
references...

I note that this has since been overtaken by Sandra's research -- hey-ho...
Any chance of correcting the text, Kathy?

Earlier, Leanne and Zoom were discussing whether or not Clark was putting
Lois
on a pedestal in making his declaration. I don't think he was -- it was
certainly
not my intention (and anyone quoting what that student said to Isaac Asimov
--
"What makes you think you know what you wrote?" -- will be treated with the
contempt they deserve <g>) -- and I don't think it follows from the story.
Clark is
not blind to Lois' faults -- if he were, they wouldn't _be_ in the situation
that
they're in. Clark would not be so concerned with Lois' possible reaction to
finding out his secret that he's worked himself into such a state that he
_has_ to
let these deeply-hidden feelings out. This is his declaration -- exactly to
whom
he's making it, not even he really knows, but it's to Lois as much as to the
rest
of creation (which puts them, to him, on something like an equal valuation
--
which is about right at that moment <g>). But whomever he's making it to,
he's
_got_ to make it; the emotion, once released by the earlier discussion, has
got
to come out.

This in no way expresses a low opinion of Lois' worth. Clark wants her as
his
partner -- his _equal_ partner -- both professionally and personally, and
that can
only come about through her consent. But, Clark being the honest guy that he
is, she's got to know what she's consenting to, and this turns out, rather
to
everyone's surprise, to be the way he tells her that.

I think Zoom got it right when she said that this is like the scene that she
describes from Close Encounters (a scene which I had completely forgotten,
not
having seen the film for over a decade). Cards on the table, not just to
show
Lois, but to tell the universe (again, more than just "the world", 'cause
Clark is
living proof that there's more to creation than that) and, above all, to end
the
uncertainty. Like the toast of the title, he "...puts it to the test, to win
or lose it
all!" And if his language is a little flowery, then that's how it has to be,
because
sometimes there's no other way to say something; this I know from my own
experience -- sometimes, you look back in embarrassment at something you've
said and wonder how you could ever come out with that stuff, but on
reflection,
there wasn't any other way to say it, and it needed to be said.

As to why Lois allows herself to be hoisted above Clark's head without
protest --
well, a lot of it is curiosity. Again, this doesn't just happen, it develops
from
earlier interaction between the two of them. Lois is over her anger -- or,
maybe,
it's been put aside for a while; either way, she's not mad, but she is
curious.
And, being Lois, she's intensely curious; Clark is showing her a whole side
of
him that she's never seen before, and she wants to know. That's a basic part
of
her personality, and it's in control here. She's not saying much, having
shut up
because she was tending to babble, but she's watching and listening to him
closely, and thinking hard. She's becoming more comfortable with the idea of
Clark's 2 identities, and thus with him. So, when he hoists her into the
air, she's
surprised, but not frightened, and because she's concentrating on him, she
makes no protest yet -- and by the time she might decide to say something,
she finds that she's quite comfortable, and too busy listening to his
declaration.
And his pas de deux turns out to be rather fun, so why spoil it?

Someone contrasted this scene with Clark throwing Lois into a dumpster in
IGACOY. I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that his doing that was
_not_ neanderthal, and especially not "[equating] her with garbage [...]
trash to
be thrown out." This is _Clark_ we're talking about, and he would never
think
that about Lois, even at her worst -- which this is a fair example of. As I
remember the episode, Lois' cover was blown and "Charlie" had been told to
throw her out. Lois, of course, was more interested in telling off Clark for
wrecking _her_ chance at getting _her_ story than she was in having the
Planet
get the story at all, a classic case of the early Lois' selfishness. She
didn't want
Clark there at all, and she didn't care that he could pick up where she left
off,
nor that her losing her cover was her own fault; no, if Lois couldn't do it
all by
herself, she didn't want _anyone_ to get the story, and especially not her
"partner". Never mind that he'd insist that they share the by-line (which
she
probably didn't believe).

So, after being on the receiving end of a lengthy harangue, Clark, fed up
with her
selfishness, maintains his cover and drops her in the dumpster -- and not
before
time; he's got more patience than I would have had. I might add, in his
defence,
that the rubbish in the dumpster, as mucky as it might have been, made for a
softer landing than, say, throwing her into the alley. Given a choice
between
rotten vegetables and asphalt, I'll go for the veggies every time.

And finally, a question to Zoom: if "quit thrashing about" sounds too
British
(which I'm _not_, BTW), what would a man from Kansas say in the same
situation?

Phil, amazed at what his story has stirred up...
--
No .sig (buffer limit), but my address is p-atclif@uwe.ac.uk
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:02:14 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "Hall, Melissa" <MHall05@SPRINTSPECTRUM.COM>
Subject:      Re: COMBO: Roosevelt, pedestals, etc.
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>And finally, a question to Zoom: if "quit thrashing about" sounds too
British
>(which I'm _not_, BTW), what would a man from Kansas say in the same
>situation?

We-ell... I'm no man, but since I'm stuck...er...living in Kansas now, I
can say with some sort of authority that he'd probably say "Stop
squirming." or "Quit it." or maybe "Cut it out." One doesn't thrash in
Kansas. (Now threshing, on the other hand...)
>
>Phil, amazed at what his story has stirred up...

Misha, who's having too much fun reading all the reaction.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:23:41 EDT
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: COMBO: Roosevelt, pedestals, etc.(thrashing about ;)
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In a message dated 98-06-17 12:48:51 EDT, P-ATCLIFFE@WPG.UWE.AC.UK writes:

<< And finally, a question to Zoom: if "quit thrashing about" sounds too
British
 (which I'm _not_, BTW), what would a man from Kansas say in the same
 situation? >>

I don't think you have to *be* British necessarily to *sound* British, at
least phraseology that sounds singularly British (did that make sense? ;)
I've had to edit stories for both Aussie and UK fans and so I've seen
similarities that I simply call "British".  Just the word "about" in certain
instances sounds British to me<g> "What was he on about?"  "Why is Cedric
mucking about?"  "Quit thrashing about" ;)  Seriously, the combination
sounded
like one Clark wouldn't use. It stuck out for me as the phrase "fixin' to"
would stick out, even though that's a very American specific phrase, but
from
the Southern United States generally.  However, I don't recall Perry ever
using it, and so I guess I wouldn't write him using "fixin' to" as in "Lois,
I'm fixin' to leave for lunch."  Nope, I just can't see it<g>  Maybe Perry
used it and I missed it, but I don't recall it being a common phrase for
him.
As for 'thrashing about' I might see Clark saying "Lois, you'll hurt
yourself
if don't settle down." or "Quit struggling or you'll hurt yourself."

There was an Aussie fan who wrote Jimmy as saying "No worries, CK."   I
asked
her if Jimmy just watch Crocodile Dundee or something.  If so, have Clark or
Jimmy mention that's why he used that phrase, if not, have Jimmy say "No
sweat" or "no problem."   She had Lois say "My mother's in hospital."    I
said put THE in front of hospital.  The funniest part (admittedly, for an
American) was when she wrote "Clark put on his jumper and hurried from his
apartment."   I wrote back "His *jumper*????"  In the US, a 'jumper' as it
refers to clothing, is generally a sleeveless dress, or a skirt with a bib
front over a blouse.  Now as much as I'd have loved to see Clark in Lois's
black chiffon, I don't think she meant to give the American readership the
impression that Clark, like his father allegedly, became a cross-dresser<g>

When something sounds distinctly British within the non-dialog part, it
doesn't matter as much to me as I'm editing as long as I can understand
what's
being said.  I would not expect Perry to say "Superman's been gone a
fortnight." (or any of the other characters for that matter)   if fortnight
were used in dialog, I'd suggest they'd change it to "two weeks" but it's
not
as crucial that they do if it's not in dialog. However, some expressions
that
the 'Brits' might think would be very well understood everywhere English
(not
that American's speak English, as Henry Higgins pointed out ;) is spoken,
would be surprised to find that sometimes that's just not true. Lois
wouldn't
say "I'll ring you up"  To Americans it would sound like Lois was trying to
total someone up on a cash register<g>  Lois would say "I'll give you a
call."
or even "I'll phone you later."   I'm not saying this is a better way to
speak, I'm just saying since the characters are Americans, this is how they
*would* speak.  I won't even go near what Americans would think if Clark
told
Lois "I'll knock you up."!!!!

If I were writing fanfic that involved a British or Australian show, I'd
pick
an editor from that country, and if that editor said my use of a certain
expression was too American, and I should use 'this' or 'that' instead, I'd
change it, believe me.  I think fanfic writers like all writers want to be
understood, but they also want to capture the flavor, or 'flavour' of how
the
characters speak in their particular corner of the world. If Jimmy said "I
have got in trouble with the police in the past."  that would sound a bit
British. If Jimmy said "I have gotten in trouble with the police in the
past."
that would sound more American.  Even Americans would be surprised how
American the word "gotten" tends to be.  The reason I put the phrase 'spot
on'
in quotes in another post, is that it's not really an expression I use.  I'd
have said "you were dead on the money" or "you hit the nail on the head" or
had gotten it "right on the nose"<g>  Ask an American what the next line to
"For he's a jolly good fellow" is, and he'll likely say "Which nobody can
deny."  It's funny anyway, since I don't know many Americans who say "jolly
good" ;)  You might start a race with "Ready. Steady. Go!"  We might start a
race with "On your mark. Get set. Go!"  We mean the same thing, we just say
it
differentlly.

Having said all of this, there will now likely be Americans, Aussies and
Brits
correcting expressions I got wrong or disagreeing with me entirely<g>
That's
a listserv for you ;)  But I can promise you, I never heard the word
"snogging" until someone from Australia said of a comic book cover "It's the
one with Lois and Clark snogging." <g>  For what it's worth though, I wrote
this in hopes that it would be helpful.

Zoomway@aol.com (I still remember the phrase "He was severely concussed."
from
The Avengers, but figured it meant "a bad concussion" however, when Steed
said
"He used a 12 bore.."  I had no idea he meant a 12 guage shotgun, I thought
it
might refer to a weird British golf club ;)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:38:20 -0400
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: COMBO: Roosevelt, pedestals, etc.(thrashing about ;)
In-Reply-To:  <84c8bf9f.358817be@aol.com>
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At 03:23 PM 6/17/98 -0400, Zoomway@aol.com wrote:
>
>Having said all of this, there will now likely be Americans, Aussies and
Brits
>correcting expressions I got wrong or disagreeing with me entirely<g>
That's
>a listserv for you ;)  But I can promise you, I never heard the word
>"snogging" until someone from Australia said of a comic book cover "It's
the
>one with Lois and Clark snogging." <g>  For what it's worth though, I wrote
>this in hopes that it would be helpful.
>
>
If you need to make corrections, just ask for a 'rubber'. ;-)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
| "What's done to children, they will do to society." - Karl Menninger|
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:15:06 -0500
Reply-To:     kbrown@webmart.net
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Kathy Brown <kbrown@TOOLCITY.NET>
Subject:      Changes to Archived stories (was Roosevelt)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Phillip Atcliffe wrote:

> I note that this has since been overtaken by Sandra's research --
hey-ho...
> Any chance of correcting the text, Kathy?

Yes, just please write me a separate message to <kbrown@webmart.net> and
tell me what you
want it to say.  I will then assign someone on the webstaff to correct it.

By the way, this goes for anyone who has a correction to make in an Archvied
story, be it
correction of typos, a change in email address or name, etc.   If the story
is short, or
if there are several changes, send me an updated copy of the story with a
request to
replace the old version with the new one.  If the story is very long and
there is just one
change (like in Phil's), send me a message with the text of the correction.

Kathy

P.S. Phil, I've written you two messages on that other writing project we
were discussing
.. can you please get back with me on your status?  I haven't heard from you
in a few
weeks and need to talk with you. :)

_________________________________
Kathy Brown
Editor-In-Chief
Lois & Clark Fanfic Archive
<http://www.ixpres.com/chrispat/lcfanfic>
kbrown@webmart.net
KathyB on IRC
_________________________________
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:45:42 +0300
Reply-To:     osangie@spinach.mscc.huji.ac.il
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "Angela H. Garmaise" <osangie@SPINACH.MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL>
Subject:      About expressions, etc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Someone (I'm sorry, I don't remember who; Zoomway, I think) mentioned
that the characters are American.  Not to be overly picky, but I'd like
to point out that they were the creation of a Canadian team, which
likely would have made their dialogue Canadian to some extent, until the
show was taken over by Americans!  And in connection, their expressions
would have likely been somewhere in between British ones and American
ones.
Totally non-connected:  I've just checked the archive, and didn't find
the story of Phil's someone mentioned:  Hand of Fate: Soulmates 2.  I
looked under both "Hand" and "Soulmates"; no luck.  So: could someone
kindly post it to the list?  Much appreciated.
Going back to majorly lurk...
Angie G.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:54:55 -0500
Reply-To:     eed2@Ra.MsState.Edu
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Elizabeth Eve Davis <eed2@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Organization: Mississippi State University
Subject:      Re: About expressions, etc.
Comments: To: osangie@spinach.mscc.huji.ac.il
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

His story is the Fanfic Archive, not the Archive of the ListServe. I had
trouble with that myself.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:20:20 -0800
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Getting OT: Re: About expressions, etc.
In-Reply-To:  <35882AF6.2959@spinach.mscc.huji.ac.il>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Someone (I'm sorry, I don't remember who; Zoomway, I think) mentioned
>that the characters are American.  Not to be overly picky, but I'd like
>to point out that they were the creation of a Canadian team, which
>likely would have made their dialogue Canadian to some extent, until the
>show was taken over by Americans!  And in connection, their expressions
>would have likely been somewhere in between British ones and American
>ones.

Well, actually our "Lois & Clark" as canon is set somewhere on the East
Coast of the US. Not Canada. No matter *where* Superman's authors are from
(or where he was situated in the original comic), that's where he is in L&C.

It's pretty important to get the dialogue right, American-wise, for
"authentic"-sounding fanfic. Far more so than, say the words in the prose
around it -- eg, the spelling, use of the word "fortnight" and other such
localisms.

Zoom added and asked to be corrected:

>> Lois wouldn't
say "I'll ring you up"  To Americans it would sound like Lois was trying to
total someone up on a cash register<g>  Lois would say "I'll give you a
call."
or even "I'll phone you later."   I'm not saying this is a better way to
speak, I'm just saying since the characters are Americans, this is how they
*would* speak.  I won't even go near what Americans would think if Clark
told
Lois "I'll knock you up."!!!!<<

Um, as far as I know -- "I'll knock you up" is an NZ-ism, used purely for
giving someone a wake-up call. It provokes the same amount of hilarity in
Australia, and indeed in the UK, as it would with Americans.

Make an interesting nfic though .... :) did I say that???

Leanne

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:44:35 EST
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         goldengrove unleaving <kubitc@KENYON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: About expressions, etc.

<< Someone (I'm sorry, I don't remember who; Zoomway, I think) mentioned
that the characters are American.  Not to be overly picky, but I'd like
to point out that they were the creation of a Canadian team, which
likely would have made their dialogue Canadian to some extent, until the
show was taken over by Americans!  And in connection, their expressions
would have likely been somewhere in between British ones and American
ones. >>

I know we've kind of had this discussion before and I'm not trying to be
overly
picky either, but the characters weren't really created by a Canadian
"team."
Shuster, the Canadian, in fact drew the pictures for the comic, and Siegel
did
the writing. Since Siegel was an American, probably the dialog is American
as
well. Not to mention that the characters were created while the two were
high
schoolers in Cleveland and Siegel was only 9 when he moved to Cleveland, not
giving him *too* much time in Canada to pick up the differences in speech.

-Christy
 kubitc@kenyon.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 03:26:57 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Montrose's Toast and Roosevelt Quotes (love the rhyme ;)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-06-17 00:30:02 EDT, volterra@SD.ZNET.COM writes:

<< Ah, yes. But wasn't she *wrong* about that? She put Supes on a pedestal
and
 couldn't see the real guy, Clark, causing hurt, angst and, well, dithering
 :) >>

No, it wasn't wrong for Lois to put Superman on a pedestal, in fact, she
kept
him on a pedestal even after she knew the truth<g>

I'll also ask the *big* question.  Why was it wrong for Lois to love
Superman
instead of Clark?  She didn't know they were the same guy, that was the idea
Clark had in mind, wasn't it? Create a persona to fool the public?  Superman
told her she'd always be special to him, didn't have to bid for his
attention,
*he's* the one who said "Lois Lane, I love you" in the pheromone episode
while
Clark said "I guess I'm just not attracted to you, Lois."  Gee, now let me
think, which of the two would *I* find more appealing?<g>   I don't mind
that
Clark wanted Lois to love him as Clark and not Superman. I don't mind that
Clark is also the one that made Superman so attractive to Lois.  It was cute
sometimes that Clark couldn't help himself around Lois and press that
advantage *but* I did mind when Lois was held to blame for falling in love
with an appealing image that Clark himself created and even romanced her
with
when it suited him.  Since the purpose of creating Superman was to make
people
believe Superman and Clark were two separate men, it often seemed as if Lois
was being punished for believing *exactly* what Clark wanted her to believe,
or at the very least it seemed she was being punished for loving the 'wrong
one' of him ;)

>>>s that a long way for saying you agree with me? Fanfic, script, novel,
thesis. It's all important. Although, I may say "borrowing" a story idea or
rewriting it without giving credit is plagiarism, not mis-crediting a
source.<<<<

That's a yes and no. Read my response to Phil below (I'm still rhyming ;)
In
fanfic we're using characters that aren't ours and never will be and we're
making them say and do things we choose, and all utterly without permission,
and often without attribution when we use quotes from various writers from
the
series<g>

Phil said:

>>>after all, exactly who said that is
irrelevant to my story; pedants can change "Eleanor" to "Alice" in the text
and it
won't make an iota of difference to the story.<<<<

I agree with this simply because in *this* case, the hilarious truth here is
that the real attribution goes to an embroidered pillow that was in a
sitting
room<g>  Did Alice *or* Eleanor come up with the wording on the embroidered
pillow? *That* information at least isn't in Bartlett's Familiar Quotations
(the source I used for the quote ;) So I don't think any FoLC were
permanently
traumatized even if it was misattributed<g>

There's also the fact that sometimes a 'saying' can morph over time, or
change
to have a more easily understood meaning, or sometimes a variation on a
quote
appears that does not take away the meaning of the original.  For example,
>from Mathew 19:24  "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a
needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."   However in
Counter Clark-wise, I had Clark say this: "Well, you know how the old verse
goes, Lois.  It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle
than
it is for a rich man to enter Heaven."  I wasn't deliberately misquoting
(even
*I* wouldn't have the gall to rewrite the bible ;), but *that* is how it was
written out on a calendar my Aunt had in her kitchen, and so I merely copied
it from that.  I mean if you can't trust a calendar put out by a funeral
home,
what's this world coming to?<g>

Ariadne suggested the calendar quote might be from the 'Living Bible' which
does some paraphrasing of biblical verse, but a funeral home and a 'living
bible' sounded ironic ;) I figured the funeral home used that verse to
encourage anyone pre-planning a funeral to use as much "riches" for their
funeral so as to make them 'lighter' for their ascent to Heaven.  Like
dropping sandbags from a hot air balloon ;)

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:41:22 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Beverly Latham <blatham@HOP-UKY.CAMPUS.MCI.NET>
Subject:      The big question [was Re: Montrose's Toast and Roosevelt
Quotes]
In-Reply-To:  <5d3374c3.3588c142@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 03:26 AM 6/18/98 EDT, The Zoomway wrote:
>I'll also ask the *big* question.  Why was it wrong for Lois to love
Superman
>instead of Clark?

Ooooo, I just gotta delurk and jump in here on this one. This is one of the
major things I've never understood about the way the Superman story has
developed over time, or maybe I understand the origins of the belief but
don't agree with it in practice, and one of the reasons why L&C so
fascinated and still fascinates me as a series is that it dared to
challenge the status quo over this very issue of their overall relationship
representing a total package of 'being' Superman together and the greater
analogy of male and female actually being able to  function as partners
instead of as adolescent adversaries. Sometimes I adored the way the series
did it and sometimes I didn't think they went far enough in debunking the
way things have always been, but I can't quibble with the lasting
impression L&C has made in the way their relationship will be viewed in the
future.

But the curious thing that still amazes me is that even among devoted FoLC
there are people who see her love of Superman as something that has to be
done away with, changed, overcome . . . something. I'm really not sure how
to describe it because I honestly don't understand the concept. Why is it
so difficult for everyone [universal everyone, here] to believe Lois could
honestly and truly love Superman and see that love as part of the overall
package of who they are and have to be IF their love has even a chance of
lasting? The way I see it, if she doesn't love Superman, well and truly
love who he is and what he is, Utopia [meaning their future and the future
of their 'world' as defined in the series] doesn't have a snow-ball's
chance in you-know-where of ever coming about, which is partially where I
think I'm going in the NEBS storyline. Eventually. At the very least, I did
deal with exactly this issue in NEBS: PROMISES - Lois knowing she loves
both. I didn't want her, or Clark, thinking that she'd somehow fallen out
of love with Superman and I also wanted Clark to understand that loving
Superman is still loving him.

Now, please understand something here, this is not a disagreement with the
notion that she has to see Clark as Clark and love him just for being
Clark. I can understand that . . . to a point. From Clark's point of view,
it is an important consideration to know whether the super hero is ALL she
loves. The problem I have with trying to wrap my brain around the concept
of her no longer loving Superman as intensely as she loves Clark is that
why doesn't anyone ever ask the reverse - namely, is the farm boy all she
then loves?

See, that's where my brain shorts out every time. Nobody has any doubts
that she falls hard for Superman right from the start. Even KNOWING he's an
alien. But for some reason in the Superman canon, it seems to be a hard and
fast rule that her love for Superman has to therefore be false. Or maybe a
fantasy of her own mind would be a better word there. Something like puppy
love or a crush. Huh? This man is real to her. Period. She, more than
anyone else, has proven time and time again, in all incarnations, that she
believes in him, who he is and what he's doing. They have a personal
relationship, one-on-one, that is caring, respectful, trusting,
understanding, helpful, LOVING . . . what is not to love?

Except, there is also this other man named Clark Kent that she has almost
the exact same one-on-one relationship with - caring, respectful, trusting,
understanding, helpful, LOVING . . . again, what is not to love? What if
she had fallen in love with Clark and not Superman? Yes, I know she
wouldn't be the Lois Lane we all know and love, but that's sort of my
point. I think. Wouldn't Clark then be looking at her with the exact
bewilderment he gave to Mayson? Clark babbling to his parents about
Mayson's reaction to both Clark and Superman was probably one of the best
scenes in the entire series for me because it expressed in a nutshell WHY
it has to be Lois Lane for him [paraphrasing here because I can't remember
the exact quote] "She likes Clark, but hates Superman." And it baffled him,
down to his toes. Dense though he is at times over the issue of whether or
not Superman is even a part of who he is, even he was perturbed over the
concept that someone could hate Superman and like, really, r*e*a*l*l*y
like, Clark. On a very fundamental level, it doesn't make sense. They are
the same person. As much as Clark Kent IS Superman, the reverse is even
more true - all that Superman is comes from who Clark is.

When Lois fell in love with Superman, she fell in love with Clark, she just
didn't know it. Where I've always felt the series fell way short was in the
way they dealt, not with the revelation itself, but with the aftermath.
Talk about short, sweet and then we move on. What happened to having to
come to grips with a completely new set of parameters to the relationship?
The issue for me at that point isn't about Lois being angry over being
deceived and I certainly didn't want to see her stay mad at him for half a
season or more. She is Lois Lane and she understands this man called
Superman. Subconsciously, at least, she would know exactly why he did it.
So, it's not a matter of suddenly hating him for doing it. It's a matter of
having to totally rethink WHO she loves and how to deal with that new
reality. Suddenly Clark has powers and Superman has . . . hat hair. Major
shift in focus there, but it isn't about loving him, all of him, it's about
whether or not she can live with who he now is to her and in her life.
Loving Superman is one thing but living with him, literally and
figuratively, is something else altogether. That was another point I wanted
to deal with in PROMISES and Ellen Lane became the voice for the concept of
all things. Oh, the possibilities the series missed there.

>Since the purpose of creating Superman was to make people
>believe Superman and Clark were two separate men, it often seemed as if
Lois
>was being punished for believing *exactly* what Clark wanted her to
believe,
>or at the very least it seemed she was being punished for loving the 'wrong
>one' of him ;)

Exactly, if anyone should be punished, shouldn't it be him? [That should
stir up a hornet's nest . . . but, really, what did she actually do to be
punished for?] And if Superman is the wrong one to love, how can she
therefore continue to love him AFTER she knows the truth? Just because
Superman is suddenly now Clark doesn't change the fact that he is still
Superman - you know, the one that was previously unattainable and far above
us, who shouldn't be brought down to our level. Oh, and let's not forget
that Superman is also the workaholic just like her father, too.

Oh, well, thank you very much for distracting me from getting any work
done. OTOH, I think this discussion may have jump-started my brain over a
problem I've been having with the next installment of NEBS, so much so that
I keep avoiding even thinking about it. I have most of TIMELESS written,
which is the twenty-four hour period right after the revelation, but for
some reason it hasn't felt right. This discussion has made me realize that
it's a POV problem. I'm still looking at things mostly from Lois' POV, her
reactions to suddenly knowing, etc., instead of shifting over to Clark's
concern over her ultimate decision about how things are going to turn out.
I want to make Clark more understanding of her dilemma in coming to grips
with the truth at the same time that he's attempting to control the outcome
in his favor but I keep being reluctant to actually get into his head to
deal with his internal conflict over this major change in his life. Oye.

And I still say that Clark is the most difficult to understand and write
about internally. By a long shot.
Beverly :-)

*******************************
Beverly Latham
blatham@hop-uky.campus.mci.net
*******************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:21:30 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Carolyn Schnall <cschnall@MAIL.MED.CORNELL.EDU>
Subject:      Resurrection
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Just a quickie with apologies for not including this in my previous post,
but why in last evening's ep, Resurrection, did Lois not yell for Superman
when she thought she was going to be buried alive?

I agree there is an inconsistency during Mayson's death.  Production wise,
perhaps they could not figure out a way to have Clark run toward Mayson and
have his shirt rip on cue.  Then they cut, and voila, ripped shirt.  Okay,
so his aura doesn't extend to his outer clothes as witnessed many times. He
was then very careful as he got up from Mayson's lifeless body, not to let
Lois see the rip, since she's behind him and he is forwarned.  This starts
a series of characters finding out his secret and then dying, Resplendant
Man's sister, one of the exceptions.

The series is plagued with many inconsistencies.  Just look at how many
actors played Lois' family?  Lois sending Clark off to New Krypton still a
vrigin?!?  Now, I love Virtually Destroyed but who's idea was it to have
Clark be a virgin in the first place, Dean, or the producers (Debby, does
this question sound familiar?).

I always seem to have so much to say when I think it will only be two
sentences.

Carolyn
cschnall@mail.med.cornell.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:21:09 +0100
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Angee Chaudhry <angee.chaudhry@WOOLACOMBE3.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:      problems with the list
MIME-Version: 1.0

Hi everyone,

Um .. I have a small problem and that is signing on to the list again ..
you see my address has changed a lot of times and hopefully this is the
last time it will change .. I have tried writing to Farah Chisham to try
and clear up this problem but to no avail and I see no other way to get
through this problem but to write to you fellow Lois and Clark fans ....
please somebody .. HELP!!!!! I have been a list subscriber for months
and am having withdrawl symptoms .. :-(

Also I have another problem which is not list related. You see I have
every single video of Lois and Clark .. some bought and some recorded
off the television when the tv programme graced our screens here in the
UK ... avid fan? Yes, I am!!!! :-) But recently some of my videos went
missing and I was wondering if someone could help me out by helping me
have a complete collection again .... the ones that I am missing are
some from Season Two and some from Season Four:

Season Two:

Chi of Steel
Top Copy
The Return of the Prankster
Target: Jimmy Olsen

Season Four:

Faster than a speeding Vixen
Shadow of a Doubt
Voice from the Past
I've got you under my skin
Toy Story
The Family Hour

I would really appreciate it if someone could get back to me and here is
my email address because it is going to be hard getting to me through
the list as I can't get it at the moment ....

angee.chaudhry@fastc.demon.co.uk

Thanks everyone for your help

sincerely

Angee.

--
Angee Chaudhry
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:47:23 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Carolyn Schnall <cschnall@MAIL.MED.CORNELL.EDU>
Subject:      Several thoughts (more body of work)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I thought I saw that someone had mentioned (can't attribute this message
exactly) that Dean didn't turn out to be all that tall.  All his bios say
he's 6 ft. tall (190 or 195 lbs.)  and he dated tall woman too.  I did
notice that there seemed to be alot of tall actors on the show (taller than
Dean).  Can anyone clarify this for me?  (I might add that he's tall enough
for me but I'm petite!)

This is the first I have heard that Dean and Teri may have had an affair
(please remember I am relatively new).  Isn't it just a rumor?

As far as I know, Dean has always had a good reputation, seen as being a
nice guy, etc.  He stated once that he had never posed nude, which I think
was very smart.  He seems to have had good guidance from his family,
esepecially from his dad, about how to conduct himself.  What he says to
someone he thinks is a friend should have remained private.  He's a healthy
young man and in my opinion, has a right to visit a nightclub without
people trying to sully his reputation.  But in showbiz, there is always
someone out there trying to make a buck at the cost of a reputation.

Can anyone tell me more about the "E" interview from which people got the
impression that Dean and Mindy are already married.   Transcript?

I was also wondering if anyone has on tape Dean's previous work, like any
of the 35 commercials, the 90210 appearances I have been trying to get, or
any of the other bit parts he had?

When I signed on, I thought I would lurk quietly.  Surprise!

Carolyn
cschnall@mail.med.cornell.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:00:55 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Farah Chisham <fchisham@INDIANA.EDU>
Subject:      Sorry to post this to the list Re: problems with the list
In-Reply-To:  <zRbUNFAlBTi1Iwz6@fastc.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hey angie, I got this message when I sent you email:
(If you are getting anything from the list:)

The original message was received at Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:56:10 -0500 (EST)
>from fchisham@copper.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.1.4]

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<angee.chaudhry@WOOLACOMBE3.DEMON.CO.UK>

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to punt-1.mail.demon.net.:
>>> RCPT To:<angee.chaudhry@WOOLACOMBE3.DEMON.CO.UK>
<<< 550 (BHST) Unknown host/domain name in
"angee.chaudhry@WOOLACOMBE3.DEMON.CO.UK"
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  [ Part 2: "Included Message" ]

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  [ Part 3: "Included Message" ]

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:56:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Farah Chisham <fchisham@indiana.edu>
To: Angee Chaudhry <angee.chaudhry@WOOLACOMBE3.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: problems with the list

Hi.  Sorry I have been *really* busy.  I can't work on it
until I get home tonight (I am at work) and I have a rehearsal
at 10 pm.  I will do what I can.  Just hang on until then :)

Farah Meitzen Chisham
fchisham@indiana.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:01:43 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Crystal Wimmer <JCWimmer@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The big question (warning... long post)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 6/18/98 7:54:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, blatham@HOP-
UKY.CAMPUS.MCI.NET writes:

> Now, please understand something here, this is not a disagreement with the
> notion that she has to see Clark as Clark and love him just for being
> Clark. I can understand that . . . to a point. From Clark's point of view,
> it is an important consideration to know whether the super hero is ALL she
> loves. The problem I have with trying to wrap my brain around the concept
> of her no longer loving Superman as intensely as she loves Clark is that
> why doesn't anyone ever ask the reverse - namely, is the farm boy all she
> then loves?

The way I see it, she never really fell *out* of love with Superman, but
rather relegated that love to a more realistic location in her heart.  She
realizes that expecting him to love her, when he is committed to the
protection of the entire world, is selfish... she gives him up.  In my
opinion, this is perhaps the greatest form of love.  She never stops loving
him... but rather she allows him to be free of the constraints of that love
while she decides to live her own life.

As for her love of Clark... I think the biggest stumbling block in that
relationship was the friendship.  Wait a minute... don't yell at me yet...
let
me explain.  Clark had insinuated himself into her life, made himself
invaluable emotionally even as Superman had done the same thing physically.
In attempting to move forward with the relationship, she stood the chance of
losing the friendship.  Keep in mind, this is a woman who had only
experienced
"federal disasters" in previous relationships... she had no way of knowing
that this would work.  I think she was just too afraid to see beyond the
friendship, because risking it was not an acceptable option.

> See, that's where my brain shorts out every time. Nobody has any doubts
>  that she falls hard for Superman right from the start. Even KNOWING he's
an
>  alien. But for some reason in the Superman canon, it seems to be a hard
and
>  fast rule that her love for Superman has to therefore be false. Or maybe
a
>  fantasy of her own mind would be a better word there. Something like
puppy
>  love or a crush. Huh? This man is real to her. Period. She, more than
>  anyone else, has proven time and time again, in all incarnations, that
she
>  believes in him, who he is and what he's doing. They have a personal
>  relationship, one-on-one, that is caring, respectful, trusting,
>  understanding, helpful, LOVING . . . what is not to love?

As the series progressed... and the friendship progressed... she developed
more confidence in the strength of the friendship.  Keep in mind, she was
always afraid of losing Clark (remember her face when he left her in Man of
Steel Bars... there wasn't any surprise, just pain... think about it).  No
one
had stayed with her... not friends, not family... no one.  She held to her
friendship with Clark with all that was in her.  She had no choice.  I
honestly believe that if she had not met Clark when she did that the Lois
Lane
we love would not have existed... she would have been completely absorbed by
her job... and most likely killed by it.  Anyway... she always held that
fear
of losing him in the back of her mind... we saw it in That Old Gang of Mine,
Green Green Glow of Home, Metallo, The Phoenix (she actually says it here...
expresses her fear that moving forward with the relationship will end the
friendship, or make the partnership uncomfortable), and we really see it in
Church of Metropolis when she expresses her fears to Perry.

Okay... in closing, I suppose my point is that it wasn't a matter of Lois
"settling" for Clark, but rather her finally developing enough confidence in
the friendship to risk it on something more.  I feel this was almost
independant of her Superman "infatuation"... that those feelings were real,
but surrounded in the awe of a superhero... if she lost him to a bad
relationship it would not have woulded her as deeply as losing Clark, so she
wasn't as cautious.

Thanks for reading my ramblings :)
Crystal
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:52:37 -0700
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Linda Mason <deanishot@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: The big question [was Re: Montrose's Toast and Roosevelt
              Quotes]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

---Beverly Latham <blatham@HOP-UKY.CAMPUS.MCI.NET> wrote:
>
> At 03:26 AM 6/18/98 EDT, The Zoomway wrote:
> >I'll also ask the *big* question.  Why was it wrong for Lois to
love Superman
> >instead of Clark?
>
> Ooooo, I just gotta delurk and jump in here on this one. This is one
of the
> major things I've never understood about the way the Superman story
has
> developed over time, or maybe I understand the origins of the belief
but
> don't agree with it in practice,

Well, as my male friends keep telling me,
women claim that they want a Clark Kent
(mild mannered, etc.) but when given the
choice, women chose Superman over Clark.

It's not wrong for Lois to love Superman,
just inconsistent with what the woman who
had so many federal disasters would/should
want. A farmboy from Kansas was a godsend for
her, but she preferred Mr.Muscles and assigned
all sorts of ideals to him, before she knew
anything about him. Lois already knew that
Clark was a "goody-two-shoes". It wasn't until
Metallo that she realized it, and it seemed to
shock her that, except for the super-powers, Superman
was her partner!

Linda
==
Linda Mason
deanishot@yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:43:43 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Frances Coogan <FCoogan106@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: COMBO: Roosevelt, pedestals, etc.(thrashing about ;)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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I agree entirely that all the dialogue in fanfics should be American.  It's
part of the style of the show, and if the speech is not authentic it ceases
to
be Lois and Clark. It just goes to show the necessity for editors though,
since we don't always realise phrases are not universal.  For example:

In a message dated 17/06/98 19:45:46 GMT, Zoomway wrote:

<<    if fortnight were used in dialog, I'd suggest they'd change it to "two
weeks" >>
I wish I'd known it was a purely British expression before passing through
US
customs last November.  -  I won't be doing that again in a hurry!

<< "I'll ring you up" >>
Not sure if many Brits would say that:  I think "I'll give you a ring" would
be more likely, sounding like a very nice jewellery opportunity<g>!

<< 'spot on' >>
When the outgoing US Ambassador to Britain (I think) was interviewed by Sir
David Frost he said that phrase was one of his favourite (yes, English
spelling<g>) things about England.  Apparently he enjoyed using it on his
compatriots and getting blank looks in return!

<< I still remember the phrase "He was severely concussed." from The
Avengers
>>
That's what we call the Great British understatement, and The Avengers is
full
of them!  A more recent common example is Murray Walker who commentates on
the
Formula One Grand Prix and frequently describes massive crashes resulting in
one or more drivers having to retire as "a coming together".

One more language thing I've wondered about is Lois's pronunciation of
"Monsieur" in "Ghosts":  Is that how Americans are taught to pronounce
French
or did Teri just get it wrong?

As for spelling, I would probably have to keep that English since I'd never
have guessed anyone wouldn't spell "defence" with a "c"!

Frances (still remembering the harsh cross-examination Louise Woodward got
>from using the word "pop" in one of its normal English senses - not unlike
my
"fortnight" experience at San Francisco airport!)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:14:18 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Several thoughts (more body of work)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 98-06-18 13:19:03 EDT, you write:

<< I thought I saw that someone had mentioned (can't attribute this message
 exactly) that Dean didn't turn out to be all that tall.  All his bios say
 he's 6 ft. tall (190 or 195 lbs.)  and he dated tall woman too.  I did
 notice that there seemed to be alot of tall actors on the show (taller than
 Dean).  Can anyone clarify this for me?  (I might add that he's tall enough
 for me but I'm petite!) >>

I'd say Dean is right at 6 feet tall.  Some of us got to meet him, Teri, K
and
Justin. Teri and Dean were standing right next to each other.  Teri was not
wearing heels.  Dean entered the news room of the Daily Planet carrying Teri
in  his arms.  Justin was following right behind them.  Justin was about
half
a head shorter than Dean, so I'd guess he was about 5'9.  When Dean set Teri
down and she was right next to him, her head would have easily slipped under
his chin (remember, she wasn't wearing any heels).  She was about 5'6.  K
Callan was shorter than Teri, so maybe K is about 5'4.   Dean was easily
taller than all of them, and he wasn't wearing heels either<g> They had
finished shooting for the day and waited about two hours for us to show up.
Only Justin seemed to be wearing what he would have worn in character as
"Jimmy" (flannel shirt, jeans, boots, and the belt buckle he was wearing had
two horse heads on it if you ever wondered ;)   I may be off on the heights
a
bit, but they were all standing side by side at one point, and Dean did seem
to be about 6' tall. He's not a man you'd meet and say "wow, he's tall"
(wow,
he's a hunk though came to mind ;) Even on the series he didn't give the
impression of being "tall" per se, just more an average tall (is that
possible? ;) height compared to most men I'd say.

When I spoke to Jim Beaver (he played Henry 'Golden Boy' Barns, the villain
who stole the invisible suit and locked Lois in the vault) he said he was
impressed with Dean's strength.  Jim said that he's 6'1 175 pounds and that
Dean effortlessly lifted him off the ground when the director told Dean to
'hoist' him<g> He also said that Dean broke the prop gun.  Jim said their
were
two different guns used for the scene.  A metal prop gun for 'looks' and a
soft, pliable replica that Dean could bend.  Jim said Dean grabbed the metal
one (forgetting to wait for the cut and substitute), and broke it in half<g>
He said Dean was a very nice guy, laughed a lot and was very accommodating
and
even-tempered.  Didn't take things terribly seriously.

>>>As far as I know, Dean has always had a good reputation, seen as being a
nice guy, etc.  He stated once that he had never posed nude, which I think
was very smart.  He seems to have had good guidance from his family,
esepecially from his dad, about how to conduct himself.<<<

I've never heard anyone who's met or worked with Dean say a negative thing
about him.  He was definitely liked at Warner Bros. from everyone in a
"suit"
to the security guards.  He hijacked a tour tram once dressed as Superman,
always was nice about posing for photos or signing autographs. Teri had a
'less nice' reputation, but I think that's because, believe it or not, she
was
kind of shy.  It gave her a reputation for being 'aloof'.  She wasn't a
'people person' like Dean, and was surprisingly insecure at times.  After
all
of us met the cast on the DP set, Paul Hulse (the sound engineer) told me
that
Dean and Teri had come up to him afterward and Teri asked "Do you think they
liked us?"  I was 'stunned, shocked, in need of oxygen' <g>

>>He's a healthy
young man and in my opinion, has a right to visit a nightclub without
people trying to sully his reputation.<<<

I agree, and I know of at least one occasion where a visit to a 'strip club'
was where the bachelor party of one of his former Princeton team mates was
being held.  If Teri had gone to a male strip joint, I'd have simply said
"you
go, girl!"<g>

Zoomway@aol.com (wishing L&C had to go undercover at a male strip club and
Clark could have dressed as Zorro maybe ;)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:01:10 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Carolyn Schnall <cschnall@MAIL.MED.CORNELL.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Several thoughts (more body of work)
In-Reply-To:  <1eb8cd2b.358958fc@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

Zoom:  I am sooooooo glad you responded with all that wonderful
anecdotal information.  Is there more where that came from (for the new
fan list maybe)?  Also, I love the Zorro stories too, and agree with
your postscript.   Wish I had met him like you and Debby:)    I don't
believe he ever comes to New York City:(

I missed nearly all the hype so I would appreciate any info, no matter
how old, small, or seemingly insignificant, from anyone who has time or
is so inclined.  Already a couple of people have given me information
that is <bold>new to me</bold>.  As I have said to some of you before,
I came real late to the party, to find that most of the goodies are
gone.

Thank you,

Carolyn

cschnall@mail.med.cornell.edu

>In a message dated 98-06-18 13:19:03 EDT, you write:

>

><<<< I thought I saw that someone had mentioned (can't attribute this
message

> exactly) that Dean didn't turn out to be all that tall.  All his bios
say

> he's 6 ft. tall (190 or 195 lbs.)  and he dated tall woman too.  I
did

> notice that there seemed to be alot of tall actors on the show
(taller than

> Dean).  Can anyone clarify this for me?  (I might add that he's tall
enough

> for me but I'm petite!) >>

>

>I'd say Dean is right at 6 feet tall.  Some of us got to meet him,
Teri, K and

>Justin. Teri and Dean were standing right next to each other.  Teri
was not

>wearing heels.  Dean entered the news room of the Daily Planet
carrying Teri

>in  his arms.  Justin was following right behind them.  Justin was
about half

>a head shorter than Dean, so I'd guess he was about 5'9.  When Dean
set Teri

>down and she was right next to him, her head would have easily slipped
under

>his chin (remember, she wasn't wearing any heels).  She was about 5'6.
 K

>Callan was shorter than Teri, so maybe K is about 5'4.   Dean was
easily

>taller than all of them, and he wasn't wearing heels either<<g> They
had

>finished shooting for the day and waited about two hours for us to
show up.

>Only Justin seemed to be wearing what he would have worn in character
as

>"Jimmy" (flannel shirt, jeans, boots, and the belt buckle he was
wearing had

>two horse heads on it if you ever wondered ;)   I may be off on the
heights a

>bit, but they were all standing side by side at one point, and Dean
did seem

>to be about 6' tall. He's not a man you'd meet and say "wow, he's
tall" (wow,

>he's a hunk though came to mind ;) Even on the series he didn't give
the

>impression of being "tall" per se, just more an average tall (is that

>possible? ;) height compared to most men I'd say.

>

>When I spoke to Jim Beaver (he played Henry 'Golden Boy' Barns, the
villain

>who stole the invisible suit and locked Lois in the vault) he said he
was

>impressed with Dean's strength.  Jim said that he's 6'1 175 pounds and
that

>Dean effortlessly lifted him off the ground when the director told
Dean to

>'hoist' him<<g> He also said that Dean broke the prop gun.  Jim said
their were

>two different guns used for the scene.  A metal prop gun for 'looks'
and a

>soft, pliable replica that Dean could bend.  Jim said Dean grabbed the
metal

>one (forgetting to wait for the cut and substitute), and broke it in
half<<g>

>He said Dean was a very nice guy, laughed a lot and was very
accommodating and

>even-tempered.  Didn't take things terribly seriously.

>

>>>>As far as I know, Dean has always had a good reputation, seen as
being a

>nice guy, etc.  He stated once that he had never posed nude, which I
think

>was very smart.  He seems to have had good guidance from his family,

>esepecially from his dad, about how to conduct himself.<<<<<<

>

>I've never heard anyone who's met or worked with Dean say a negative
thing

>about him.  He was definitely liked at Warner Bros. from everyone in a
"suit"

>to the security guards.  He hijacked a tour tram once dressed as
Superman,

>always was nice about posing for photos or signing autographs. Teri
had a

>'less nice' reputation, but I think that's because, believe it or not,
she was

>kind of shy.  It gave her a reputation for being 'aloof'.  She wasn't
a

>'people person' like Dean, and was surprisingly insecure at times.
After all

>of us met the cast on the DP set, Paul Hulse (the sound engineer) told
me that

>Dean and Teri had come up to him afterward and Teri asked "Do you
think they

>liked us?"  I was 'stunned, shocked, in need of oxygen' <<g>

>

>>>He's a healthy

>young man and in my opinion, has a right to visit a nightclub without

>people trying to sully his reputation.<<<<<<

>

>I agree, and I know of at least one occasion where a visit to a 'strip
club'

>was where the bachelor party of one of his former Princeton team mates
was

>being held.  If Teri had gone to a male strip joint, I'd have simply
said "you

>go, girl!"<<g>

>

>Zoomway@aol.com (wishing L&C had to go undercover at a male strip club
and

>Clark could have dressed as Zorro maybe ;)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:48:30 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Beverly Latham <blatham@HOP-UKY.CAMPUS.MCI.NET>
Subject:      Re: The big question (warning... long post)
In-Reply-To:  <b8cadbb0.358939e9@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 12:01 PM 6/18/98 EDT, Crystal Wimmer wrote:
>The way I see it, she never really fell *out* of love with Superman, but
>rather relegated that love to a more realistic location in her heart.  She
>realizes that expecting him to love her, when he is committed to the
>protection of the entire world, is selfish... she gives him up.  In my
>opinion, this is perhaps the greatest form of love.  She never stops loving
>him... but rather she allows him to be free of the constraints of that love
>while she decides to live her own life.

Nobility? Hmm, I don't think I've ever quite looked at it in that way, but
I suppose this may be exactly where the above scenario loses me because I
don't think I've ever seen Lois Lane as particularly noble and I'm not sure
I can buy into that being her primary motivation with regards to Superman
and Clark. Particularly with regards to them, er, him. Clark is truly
noble, yes. By definition, Superman and all that he represents is our
modern icon of nobility - that willingness to give all to help others for
purely unselfish reasons. Lois Lane, however, strikes me as a survivor,
plain and simple, and survivors have never been known for their nobility.
They are known for self-preservation, ruthlessness, determination,
stubborness, occassional brilliance and pure gut-level instinct. Sound
familiar?

That is not to say she doesn't have her moments of blinding nobility any
more than Clark isn't purely selfish at certain times, but it's their
overall personalities I'm talking about here. Being a survivor by nature is
exactly what makes her the perfect counterpoint to Clark's shining nobility
all the way around. When he's ready to give up, she's looking around for
alternates. Her survivor personality may well be what Lex originally saw in
her that he mistakenly thought reflected his own soul, what he also thought
was completely lacking in Superman's very alien moral perfection and what
Tempus came to realize she contributes so importantly to the Superman
partnership. Nobility is great in it's place, but it also has a tendency to
create mainly martyrs NOT longevity all the way around. Sometimes,
situations call for a born survivor to hold everything, and everyone,
together. Sure Clark can be counted on to make the ultimate sacrifice if it
were ever needed, but could it be that her Mad Dog Lane survival instinct
is the real reason Lois Lane is remembered on the same level as Superman in
their future?

Nobility would dictate that she give up Superman for the greater good.
That's exactly Clark's line at the end of CONTACT and, no matter how dumb
it was, it was in character for him. Even he found out he couldn't survive
that decision. The problem with pinning the nobility motive onto her
decision to turn from Superman to Clark is that if it really is why she did
it . . . wouldn't she therefore have to give up Clark for the very same
'unselfish and noble' reasons once she learns the truth? Survival, on the
other hand, is a whole other kettle of fish. Survival dictates that all
things being equal, meaning she realizes she loves them for basically the
same reasons, she CHOSES Clark as the better candidate in the long run
because attempting to have a longterm relationship with Superman is insane
all the way around. That isn't about giving up anything but gaining quite a
lot. And wasn't making a healthy choice really what her sessions with Dr.
Friskin were all about?

I'm not entirely sure her infamous blindness over the truth can't be
explained away as pure survival instinct in action, either. She had all the
clues yet refuses to see them. Why? Maybe because, initially at least, it
was the only way she could survive having this partner whose very presense
in her life created such emotional conflict inside her. Being a survivor is
also why she doesn't have to give him up once the truth does come out.
Someone else might've immediately ended their relationship with an, "Oh, my
god, I'm right back where I started, having to share you with the world. I
can't deal with this." Lois Lane strikes me as the type to think that in
passing, then her survivor personality would kick in and she would begin to
see all the possibilities for making it work with the man of her dreams.
"You mean, sometimes when I thought you were disappearing to save the
world, you were really coming right back for a date with me as Clark? Wow."
or "The man I love is an alien, but, OTOH, he can do all these really neat
things . . . like fly . . . oh, WOW."

Beverly :-)

*******************************
Beverly Latham
blatham@hop-uky.campus.mci.net
*******************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:18:09 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      "The Chicken and Egg Debate"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

>>I'll also ask the *big* question.  Why was it wrong for Lois to love
Superman
instead of Clark?  She didn't know they were the same guy, that was the
idea
Clark had in mind, wasn't it? Create a persona to fool the public?<<

Why is it "not okay" to love Superman instead of Clark?

Well, for the sake of argument, because Superman is the disguise and Clark
is the real person.  Superman is the vehicle through which Clark performs
his acts of heroism.  Loving Superman, without knowing anything about him
other than that he shows up periodically and performs heroic deeds is a
fantasy kind of love.  It's like loving the doctor qua doctor, or the
policeman qua policeman -- without knowing anything about the person
underneath the suit or outside of the job.  The Superman aspect of Clark is
a manifestation of Clark's basic goodness, his basic character.  He would
still be good, heroic, brave, and everything else he is -- including a
lunkhead -- if he had never decided to put on the suit.  Certainly, by
taking on the guise of Superman, Clark has been liberated.  But, *it is*
Clark who put on the suit (after many years living without it), not
Superman who decided to become Clark.  Not in this version, anyhow.

In any case, I shouldn't take this bait.;)  It never gets me anywhere.<g>

*******
Speaking of "getting places", if anyone is interested in getting a look at
what I do when I'm not scavenging for Alice Roosevelt Longworth info,
please feel free to visit my office's website (still under construction, I
might add) at:

http://www.nas.edu/ocga

Although we have an "in-house" developer who put it together, I decided how
it would look, where everything would go, and what would be on it.  I'm
populating it right now, which is only a little less traumatic than
populating in real life.  Be warned.  It is not zoned for L&C and is quite
boring.  Please, only tell me what you think of it if you intend to be
terribly kind. ;)

Sandy
smcdermi@nas.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:01:48 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         No Name Available <JulietttXF@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Sorry to post this to the list Re: problems with the list
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 6/18/98 12:34:45 PM EST, fchisham@INDIANA.EDU writes:

>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
>  <angee.chaudhry@WOOLACOMBE3.DEMON.CO.UK>

You know, I must say, I've always found this message to be vaguely alarming.
.
. . :D

Permanent?  And FATAL???

Geez.  Let's hope not. . . .

J3
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 00:25:50 +0100
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Angee Chaudhry <angee.chaudhry@WOOLACOMBE3.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:      Problems with the list
In-Reply-To:  <4179b66c.35898e4e@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0

In message <4179b66c.35898e4e@aol.com>, No Name Available
<JulietttXF@AOL.COM> writes
>In a message dated 6/18/98 12:34:45 PM EST, fchisham@INDIANA.EDU writes:
>
>>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
>>  <angee.chaudhry@WOOLACOMBE3.DEMON.CO.UK>
>
>You know, I must say, I've always found this message to be vaguely
alarming. .
>. . :D
>
>Permanent?  And FATAL???
>
>Geez.  Let's hope not. . . .
>
>J3

Hey there J3 ....

Well it seems now that the problem has corrected itself because I am now
back on the list and I'm a happy camper .. :-D .. a VERY happy camper ..
God knows why it did that in the first place ... I never did get that
message, maybe it's because I was no longer on the list (temporarily)
...

thanks for the email though .. really appreciate it :-) .. and of course
the concern .. now all I have to do is find the epsiodes of L & C that I
have lost .. not purposely of course but I have had a tape taken from me
with the last 6 episodes of the 4th season and a 3or 4 season two
episodes .. :-(

Do you know anyway I could solve this problem? Maybe someone (or you)
who could help me out and get these episodes back? I hope so, fingers
crossed. Well ....

Take care ...

Sincerely,

Angee.

--
Angee Chaudhry
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:29:25 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "The Chicken and Egg Debate"
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 98-06-18 17:29:02 EDT, SMcDermi@NAS.EDU writes:

<<
 Well, for the sake of argument, because Superman is the disguise and Clark
 is the real person.  Superman is the vehicle through which Clark performs
 his acts of heroism.  >>

Ah, this wasn't the quetion. What you gave was the company line from the
omniscient viewpoint the *audience* would have.  Not the viewpoint Lois and
others in Metropolis would have.  Did Lois know Clark and Superman were the
same man? No, she did not.  *That* being the case, then what was wrong with
her falling in love with Superman?  It doesn't matter for purposes of this
question what or who Superman really was.  The fact that Lois (like everyone
else) thought he was a separate entity from Clark Kent is the issue, and her
right to love Superman as opposed to Clark Kent.  So that is the question.
Viewing Superman and Clark Kent as two separate people, as Clark himself had
intended, why should Lois be seen as 'wrong' for choosing Superman instead
of
Clark Kent?

>>>Loving Superman, without knowing anything about him
other than that he shows up periodically and performs heroic deeds is a
fantasy kind of love.  It's like loving the doctor qua doctor, or the
policeman qua policeman -- without knowing anything about the person
underneath the suit or outside of the job.<<<<

You mean like Clark falling in love with Lois two minutes after he met
her?<g>
However, keep in mind that Lois did not confess her love for Superman to his
face until she had known him for several months and *after* he had said
spiffy
little things to her like "You'll always be special to me, Lois."  "You
don't
have to bid for my attention, Lois."  "Lois Lane, I love you."   No, Lois
didn't know a whole lot about Superman, but she didn't know a whole lot
about
Clark either, like that he could fry eggs with heat vision ;)  That becomes
part of my point.

>>>he Superman aspect of Clark is
a manifestation of Clark's basic goodness, his basic character.  He would
still be good, heroic, brave, and everything else he is -- including a
lunkhead -- if he had never decided to put on the suit.  Certainly, by
taking on the guise of Superman, Clark has been liberated.  But, *it is*
Clark who put on the suit (after many years living without it), not
Superman who decided to become Clark.  Not in this version, anyhow.<<<

I would argue that SUPERMAN is more the whole truth about who and what Clark
Kent is/was, than ... Clark Kent.  At least from the standpoint of people
who
viewed Superman and Clark as two separate people as Clark intended them to.
*Who* and *what* did people believe Clark was?

Clark Kent List
---------------
Nice guy
handsome
>from Kansas
journalist
human

Who and What did people believe Superman was?

Superman List
----------------
Nice guy
handsome
>from Krypton
superhero
alien

Clark Kent was not as close to a true representation of who/what he was as
Superman.  No matter how Clark might have viewed himself as a "regular guy"
he
was not, nor would he ever be.  Everyone who believed Clark was a human, was
believing the lie Clark lived.  You can ascribe "human" to Clark as a kind
of
default setting since he was raised on Earth, but that gets back to the Hill
Street Blues quote "you can put shoes in the oven, but that don't make 'em
biscuits"  Clark wanted Lois to fall in love with his own self-delusion.
She
did, and .......

Lois starts falling in love with Clark Kent, her best friend, her partner
and
a man she *thinks* is just as human as she is.  She tearfully relegated her
love for Superman to friendship in Whine Whine Whine.  She's decided to put
Superman in that category of "Puff, the magic dragon" the things of fantasy,
and love a real man and start a life with that real man.  Well, well, well,
guest what?<g>  She found out that *Clark* was more the fantasy than
Superman.
She at least knew Superman had powers and abilities far beyond those of
mortal
men, and that he was an *alien*.  Clark turned out to have all that too, and
was only pretending to be human.  At least Superman didn't pretend he wasn't
an alien.

It's what makes Ordinary People a wonderful episode for exploring the schizo
reality Lois suddenly found herself in.  She had to immediately go from
believing she loved a human man in WHALTTA to realizing she was in love with
an alien who pretty much 'seemed' human, but wasn't, and who also had this
other job (doin' good, that about right? ;)  Listen carefully to what she
says
to Perry in the office in OP.  She says that she really loves Clark, and
Perry
says "then there isn't a problem", and Lois replies "Yes, there is, Perry.
Have you ever found someone who you thought was exactly right for you, and
then you found out this thing about them, something you *never* knew before,
but you thought could just wreck it all?"

Lois was very serious here.  She *thought* she'd fallen in love with a human
man ("I need some stability in my life") and he turned out to be an alien,
and
the most powerful, famous being on the planet to boot.  Lois wanted Clark to
be the "ordinary" guy she thought she fell in love with, and Clark tried to
be
that for her in OP.  But what Lois surmised from the experience is that she
didn't have to shift gears and go back to loving Superman, or try to hold on
to the fantasy of the Clark she thought she fell in love with, but who never
really existed; she had to learn to love that amalgam of both personas. The
*whole* truth about him.  And the whole truth is, that Clark/Superman from
Krypton/Kansas, the journalist/superhero, who was not human, and never would
be, but could teach us all a few things about humanity, loved Lois Lane with
his entire alien/human heart and soul.

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:12:06 EST
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         goldengrove unleaving <kubitc@KENYON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: "The Chicken and Egg Debate"

<< Why is it "not okay" to love Superman instead of Clark?

Well, for the sake of argument, because Superman is the disguise and Clark
is the real person.  Superman is the vehicle through which Clark performs
his acts of heroism. >>

This is what I always thought, too, until reading Sheila Harper's Mxysplit,
in which "Superman" and "Clark Kent" are separated into two (physically)
different people. It's a great story, and it really changed my way of seeing
"Clark" & "Superman." The reason I'm putting both names in quotes is that
neither are "real" people. "Clark Kent, mild-mannered reporter" is as a
disguise, too, since as "Clark Kent," Clark isn't really being himself-
being
himself would entail the free use of his powers, as he does around his
parents
and later around Lois. Maybe he was "Clark Kent" first, but when he
developed
his powers, another part of him developed, a part that could not be part of
"Clark Kent" unless he wanted to reveal himself as an alien. So "Superman"
is
created, I think, from the first time Clark started to be different. Maybe
it
was in The Pilot that Superman got a name, a costume, and came into
existence
for everyone besides the Kents, but that aspect of Clark had existed ever
since
he developed powers. If "Superman" had never existed, the Clark Kent that
everyone besides Lois & the Kents knew would be the same, but the "real"
Clark,
the way he acts when he's alone, or with his family, would be quite
different.

I've also noticed that Superman and Clark act differently. Superman likes to
use sometimes-corny, sometimes-smug phrases when he deals with criminals.
It's
a sort of bravado that isn't really shown by "Clark Kent." Superman is more
confidant than Clark, perhaps because he doesn't have as much to hide in
terms
of physical abilities.

Back to the question of what is wrong with Lois loving Superman- a lot of my
problem with this is the fact that Lois fell in love with Superman not
because
of who he was, but because of what he could do. He swallows a bomb, lifts a
shuttle into orbit, flies her into the Daily Planet, and she's smitten. What
about talking? Getting to know him? She doesn't even know his name and she's
head over heels. (Kinda like Clark, with Lois.) That isn't love, that's
attraction. (I know, probably someone will respond that it's "love at first
sight," and that's how they met their spouse, and they've been happily
married
ever since, but, considering how often people, especially young people, fall
in
"love at first sight," that it works out seems to be the exception and not
the
rule.) The difference between Clark's attraction at first sight love for
Lois
and hers for Superman is that he does get to know her, and finds that he
continues to love her, and loves her even more. Lois, on the other hand,
knows
very little about Superman, even when she "gives up" on him in WWW. That's
what
bothers me- that she would love Superman and hardly know anything about him.

Another reason that Lois's love for Superman isn't "kosher" is that it seems
like she loves an unattainable man simply because he's unattainable. She'd
been
burned, and burned bad, by "love" before, and it seemed easier to live
without
it than to try and make it work. So instead of falling for a real person,
with
faults and problems and "hat hair," ;) she falls for "a god in a cape," a
man
so out of reach that he flies! In a way, her love for him is like a
teenager's
crush on an actor or musician- she knows little about him, is in awe of him,
and knows that he's out of reach, but likes to dream.

Added to that the fact that much of the show was shown from Clark's point of
view. *We* know he's Superman. *We* know that he's head over heels for Lois,
even before he does. And *we* know that it pains him for Lois to love the
Superman part of him and spurn the Clark part. We see the pain and problems
Clark goes through trying to keep up both identities and trying to make Lois
see the "real" him, and we get upset with Lois- "Why can't you see that
Clark
is Superman? Duh! It's just a pair of glasses!" We see less of what Lois
thinks,
though we know some from her actions. (Probably contributing to that is the
fact that Clark has his parents as confidants and Lois doesn't really talk
to
anyone besides Clark and, once in a great while, Perry. For instance, during
ATAI, we see a sort-of recognition when Superman freezes Lois, then her
'thawing out,' then her 'who's asking?' line. But we see more of Clark's
POV- a
short conversation with his parents. What I want to know is what LOIS was
thinking during that time, alone in her apartment. She had plenty of time to
think, pace, yell, cry- so what happened?? Maybe that's why more fanfic
seems
to be written from Lois's POV than from Clark's- or maybe it's becuase more
of
the fanfic authors are women and maybe they feel more of a "bond" with
Lois.)

And I'm sure that much of the reason that Lois "shouldn't" love Superman is
that we're rooting for Clark. ;) We want the normal, everyday guy, the
underdog, to win, instead of the too-good-to-be-true god-in-a-cape. We want
to
know that we, as "real" people, like "Clark," could win someone as
unattainable
as Lois makes herself, and that we could do it without the cape.

-Christy
 kubitc@kenyon.edu
 Attalanta on IRC
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:23:48 -0800
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: "The Chicken and Egg Debate"
In-Reply-To:  <574ec1e1.3589b0e7@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I said (I think)
<< Ah, yes. But wasn't she *wrong* about that? She put Supes on a pedestal
and
 couldn't see the real guy, Clark, causing hurt, angst and, well, dithering
 :) >>

Zoom responded:
>No, it wasn't wrong for Lois to put Superman on a pedestal, in fact, she
kept
him on a pedestal even after she knew the truth<g><

I'll also ask the *big* question.  Why was it wrong for Lois to love
Superman
instead of Clark? <

Although the question is kind of irrelevant to my point ... Lois put
Superman on a pedestal that was not only idealistic (truth, justice, yada
yada -- dammit, she *built* that pedestal) but highly emotional. It was the
emotional side that was wrong because putting someone on a pedestal isn't
loving them. It's idolising them. The two could never achieve true
closeness without that emotional pedestal going.

The answer to Zoom's question: it wasn't wrong. It was *incomplete*. She
had a crush on the ideal Superman represented. Clark Kent (as Zoom goes on
in a later post) is the humanity behind the ideal. The relationship
couldn't go forward without knowing everything there is about Superman --
and to do that, she has to know everything about Clark Kent. Until CK let
her in, (or she found out), it was just a wonderful, romantic fantasy.
Together -- it's a wonderful, romantic reality.

Zoom says a lot of stuff and then finally sums succinctly, with much that I
just said:

>  But what Lois surmised from the experience is that she
>didn't have to shift gears and go back to loving Superman, or try to hold
on
>to the fantasy of the Clark she thought she fell in love with, but who
never
>really existed; she had to learn to love that amalgam of both personas. The
>*whole* truth about him.  And the whole truth is, that Clark/Superman from
>Krypton/Kansas, the journalist/superhero, who was not human, and never
would
>be, but could teach us all a few things about humanity, loved Lois Lane
with
>his entire alien/human heart and soul.
>
>Zoomway@aol.com

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:30:27 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Regina Gilchrist Ash <rash@DNET.NET>
Subject:      "British-isms" & "American'isms"

On Thursday, June 18, 1998 1:43 PM, Frances Coogan[SMTP:FCoogan106@AOL.COM]
wrote:
> <<    if fortnight were used in dialog, I'd suggest they'd change it to
"two
> weeks" >>
> I wish I'd known it was a purely British expression before passing
through US
> customs last November.  -  I won't be doing that again in a hurry!
>
Just a quick note....fortnight is *NOT* solely a British expression. It was
widely used in the US until maybe a couple decades ago (maybe it's just
part of the "dumbing down of American :) Many Americans still know that it
means 2 weeks, and my family still use it. Also, as strange as it may seem,
John, my New Zealand buudy, and I have found that I know *many* expressions
that he doesn't expect me to know. We've decided it's from this region
being so heavily Scots-settled, and that the Southern Appalachians are
"just a bit" behind the times in many ways (if that's how one would like to
consider us.) We were a very isolated enclave until well past the turn of
 the century. My great aunt was my babysitter much of my youth and
apparently I learned quite a few bits of "holdover" British-isms from her.
Whether she realized they were or not, I'll never know.

I do agree, however, that L&C dialogue should be written from an American
standpoint...but then, I wouldn't expect Fawlty Towers or To the Manor Born
to be written any other way but true King's English!

later, FoLC (this is an interesting topic)
Regina
--
Regina Ash (rash@dnet.net)
************************************************
"Science, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable
>from magic." -Arthur C. Clarke
***********************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:27:38 -0400
Reply-To:     NightSky@erols.com
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Genevieve <NightSky@EROLS.COM>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I really have to disagree that all the dialogue in fanfics should be
American.

We FoLCS are an international community.  "Lois and Clark" is/was shown
in many countries around the world; it was translated into Spanish,
French, German, Portuguese and other languages.  Fans who have not seen
Lois and Clark in English do *not* hear the characters talking in
American idiom.  Yet I would hesitate to say that they have not watched
"Lois and Clark" just because they have not heard the exact same idioms
we have.  Superman in general, and "Lois and Clark" in particular, have
had an international appeal.  I don't think the characters are hurt, or
unbelievable, just because they happen to use a non-USA idiom or two.

I have read many fanfics where I have had trouble believing Lois or
Clark would "say" this or that, but it's always been *what* they said,
not *how* they said it, that caused my disbelief.  I can't see Clark
threatening to kill somebody, for example -- and it wouldn't matter if
he said it in a perfect Americanism, or in an Australian idiom.

I admit to raising my eyebrows when I ran accross the word "knickers" in
Dom's fanfic Whiskey Galore.  But I knew what it meant (or if I didn't
it was pretty obvious from the context <g>) and I just kept reading.  As
an American, I read enough British fiction, and watch enough British
television, and talk to enough British and Australian people on the
'net, that this sort of thing is second-nature to me.

As FoLCs, writing fanfic, we are moving beyond the canon of the 88 hours
of "Lois and Clark" offered to us by Warner Brothers.  Lois and Clark,
as characters, will change and grow in our fanfic in ways they never did
on the television show.  You don't have to be able to "hear" Teri or
Dean delivering the lines, only be able to imagine Lois and Clark saying
them.  And I've read Arthurian literature and stories of Robin Hood
which used British idioms, and I've read those that used American idioms
too.  They can use modern English or be full of thees and thous.  A good
story should transcend the language used.

These are *our* stories.  And if a British FoLC imagines Lois or Clark
speaking in the British idiom, why not?  Lois and Clark belong to them
too, as much as to the Americans.  All of us take these characters that
we love and relate them to our own experiences, our own lives, our own
dreams.  We bring *ourselves* into our stories, and this is what makes
fanfic interesting.

It also concerns me that this restriction on fanfic ("Thou must make
Lois and Clark sound like thirty-something year old Americans") may
discourage some people from writing.  They may feel that they couldn't
possibly make Lois and Clark sound "right" so why try.  Sure, an
American editor could point unfamiliar idioms out, if the writer is
lucky enough to have one, but it shouldn't be *mandatory*!

Good grammar on the other hand....<g>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genevieve    (NightSky@erols.com) ; <http://www.erols.com/nightsky>

  There are new pictures of my kids on my web page -- take a look!!
     They don't come any cuter.....
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:03:20 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-06-18 22:37:01 EDT, NightSky@erols.com writes:

<< It also concerns me that this restriction on fanfic ("Thou must make
 Lois and Clark sound like thirty-something year old Americans") may
 discourage some people from writing.  They may feel that they couldn't
 possibly make Lois and Clark sound "right" so why try.  Sure, an
 American editor could point unfamiliar idioms out, if the writer is
 lucky enough to have one, but it shouldn't be *mandatory*! >>

Wow, seriously disagree here.  For foreign language fans, I've seen their
fanfic written in German, Spanish, French, etc., and their writing may
reflect
the L&C 'idioms' from the dubbed versions of the episodes, which is great,
because *that* is the L&C they see and hear. However, I've also seen fanfic
>from German fans written in English, and they make a point to try and make
L&C
"sound" as they do on undubbed versions of the show, which is with that
"thirty-something Americans" (wherever the heck that notion came from, since
Dean is from Malibu and uses a lot of 'gonna' and 'wanna' thrown in ;)  If I
wrote fanfic for a show set in the UK or Australia, I'd try my hardest to
honor that and write to *their* lingo, not mine.  I just think it shows
respect for the characters, and even the actors who put some of themselves
into how they translate into fanfic.

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 01:08:08 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "Lynda D. Love" <Rxiris@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Teri's height (was  Re: Several thoughts)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Re: Teri's height, Zoomway wrote:
> When Dean set Teri
>down and she was right next to him, her head would have easily slipped
under
>his chin (remember, she wasn't wearing any heels).  She was about 5'6.

I'll agree that Dean's 6 feet tall, but I don't think Teri is 5'6" tall.
My husband is 6 feet tall and I am 5'6", so I tried an experiment
tonight. I stood next to my husband and could definitely not slip my head
under his chin. (And I wasn't wearing heels either <g>)

I'm guessing Teri is actually closer to 5'4" tall.

I was also there on the day the FOLC met Dean, Teri, K, and Justin.
Strange that it was almost three years ago already. I remember marveling
at how tiny Teri is. She's so tiny and small-boned that Dean *appears*
much larger, by comparison, when they're standing next to each other.

> K
>Callan was shorter than Teri, so maybe K is about 5'4.

I walked next to K when we walked across the street for dinner on the
final night of FOLCfest '95 and I felt like I towered over her, so I'm
guessing she's not much more than 5 feet tall.

None of this is really important except to bolster my long held belief
that Hollywood loves tiny women--they make the male actors appear larger
than they really are. Oh, and maybe there's a little part of me that is
happy to be taller than Ms. Hatcher, even though I look nothing like her
and weigh nothing close to her weight <g>.

>I've never heard anyone who's met or worked with Dean say a negative thing
>about him.  He was definitely liked at Warner Bros. from everyone in a
"suit"
>to the security guards.  He hijacked a tour tram once dressed as Superman,
>always was nice about posing for photos or signing autographs. Teri had a
>'less nice' reputation, but I think that's because, believe it or not, she
>was
>kind of shy.  It gave her a reputation for being 'aloof'.  She wasn't a
>'people person' like Dean, and was surprisingly insecure at times.

When we toured the lot (before we met the cast), we were told not to call
out to Teri if we saw her. Our guide referred to her as "skittish." This
reminded me of a race horse, and I carried the analogy with me as we went
through the tour, that of Teri being a touchy and difficult to handle,
but very valuable commodity. Weird. Anyway, actually seeing her in person
dispelled most of that notion <g>.

>After all
>of us met the cast on the DP set, Paul Hulse (the sound engineer) told me
>that
>Dean and Teri had come up to him afterward and Teri asked "Do you think
they
>liked us?"  I was 'stunned, shocked, in need of oxygen' <g>

Geez, I think most of us were definitely in a state of shock. A few of us
women lucky enough to shake Dean's nice warm soft hand (<splash!>)
quipped that we'd never wash our hands again.  Ah, those were the days.  :-)

Lynda

__________________
Lynda D. Love
Rxiris@aol.com
--Ask me about my iris plants.
"I sort of joke that I'm trying to be a part of as many things that end up
on Nick at Night as possible!  I've been in The Love Boat, Superman, and now
James Bond." --Teri Hatcher
__________________
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:08:03 +1000
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         trish <trish@HOTKEY.NET.AU>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Hi,

I thought being a fanfic writer not from the US I'd give my 2cents.

(Zoomway wrote:)

> Wow, seriously disagree here.  For foreign language fans, I've seen their
> fanfic written in German, Spanish, French, etc., and their writing may
reflect
> the L&C 'idioms' from the dubbed versions of the episodes, which is
great,
> because *that* is the L&C they see and hear. However, I've also seen
fanfic
> from German fans written in English, and they make a point to try and
make L&C
> "sound" as they do on undubbed versions of the show, which is with that
> "thirty-something Americans" (wherever the heck that notion came from,
since
> Dean is from Malibu and uses a lot of 'gonna' and 'wanna' thrown in ;)
If I
> wrote fanfic for a show set in the UK or Australia, I'd try my hardest to
> honor that and write to *their* lingo, not mine.  I just think it shows
> respect for the characters, and even the actors who put some of
themselves
> into how they translate into fanfic.

I agree with this. Being Australian I do spell and say things a little
differently, but when it comes to Lois and Clark world I try to use
American grammar and language when I can. That is that I use things like
sidewalk instead of footpath and center instead of centre. Writing in my
own Australian style might be a little bit easier for me but it is not (in
my opinion) staying true Lois and Clark: the new adventures of superman. It
would be the same with a storyline I believed was innapropriate for the
characters. I wouldn't write it because I would want to stay true to what I
have seen on the show. I'm not saying that that is the way everyone thinks
or feels, just my opinion.

I do not agree that all fanfic should be written in American language
however because I believe that people have the right to be comfortable
writing in whatever way makes them happy. We do this for our own pleasure
and for everyone else's. I guess if someone chooses to write in a style you
don't like, don't read it. Everyone is different and that diversity makes
us beautiful. :)

Trish <trish@hotkey.net.au>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:14:46 +1000
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Jenny Stosser <jenerate@OZRAMP.NET.AU>
Subject:      Edward Bulwar Lytton
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Getting back to the concept of Badfic, I thought you might all enjoy
reading the following.

>Subject: Edward Bulwar Lytton
>Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:53:00 +1000
>
> The Edward Bulwar Lytton prize is awarded every year to the author of the
>> > worst possible opening line of a book.  This has been so successful
>> that  Penguin now publishes five books-worth of entries.
>> >
>> >     Some recent winners:
>> >
>> > "As a scientist, Throckmorton knew that if he were ever to break
>> wind in the sound chamber he would never hear the end of it."
>> >
>> > "With a curvaceous figure that Venus would have envied, a tanned,
>> > unblemished oval face framed with lustrous thick brown hair, deep
>> > azure-blue eyes fringed with long black lashes, perfect teeth that
vied
>> > for competition, and a small straight nose, Marilee had a beauty that
>> > defied description."
>> >
>> > "Andre, a simple peasant, had only one thing on his mind as he crept
>> > along the east wall: "Andre creep ... Andre creep ... Andre creep."
>> >
>> > "Stanley looked quite bored and somewhat detached, but then penguins
>> often do."
>> >
>> > "Like an overripe beefsteak tomato rimmed with cottage cheese, the
>> > corpulent remains of Santa Claus lay dead on the hotel floor."
>> >
>> > "Mike Hardware was the kind of private eye who didn't know the meaning
>of
>> > the word "fear," a man who could laugh in the face of danger and spit
in
>the
>> > eye of death -- in short, a moron with suicidal tendencies.
>> >
>> > AND THE BEST OF ALL:
>> >
>> > "The sun oozed over the horizon, shoved aside darkness, crept along the
>> > greensward, and, with sickly fingers, pushed through the castle window,
>> > revealing the pillaged princess, hand at throat, crown asunder, gaping
>in
>> > frenzied horror at the sated, sodden amphibian lying beside her,
>> > disbelieving the magnitude of the frog's deception, screaming madly,
>> "You lied!"

--
Jenny Stosser -*- jenerate@ozramp.net.au -*- (Jenerator or Some1Else on IRC)
-*- My ICQ# is 11477318 -*- This message is umop ap!sdn -*-
Photos of David (5) and Megan (2) on the Stosser Family HomePage:
http://geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/4583  Please sign our guestbook!
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:10:38 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Pedestal (was Re: "The Chicken and Egg Debate"
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 98-06-18 21:25:27 EDT, volterra@SD.ZNET.COM writes:

<< Although the question is kind of irrelevant to my point ... Lois put
 Superman on a pedestal that was not only idealistic (truth, justice, yada
 yada -- dammit, she *built* that pedestal) but highly emotional. It was the
 emotional side that was wrong because putting someone on a pedestal isn't
 loving them. It's idolising them. The two could never achieve true
 closeness without that emotional pedestal going. >>

One of the many great things about this version of the Superman legend that
sets it apart from other incarnations, is that Lois and Clark *together*
equal
Superman. Clark had the know-how and Lois had the show-how (to borrow lyrics
>from Bedknobs and Broomsticks ;) It was "highly emotional" because both
Lois
and Clark saw Superman as more important than themselves as individuals.
After Lois learned the truth, her conviction didn't diminish.  At this point
in their relationship, with Lois in on the secret, the 'pedestal' for
Superman
wasn't about love so much as a reminder that Superman represented the more
noble part of both of them. "Lois" and/or "Clark" could afford to be
fallible
like everyone else, but Superman didn't have that luxury. Fair or not, for
some he was the 'moral compass', he was an 'idea to build some hopes
around',
he was a 'symbol of fairness', and Lois and Clark protected Superman "so
that
the image of a hero" wouldn't be shattered. He was on a pedestal because he
was "above us" and even above them.

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 07:29:11 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         No Name Available <Larus2407@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "The Chicken and Egg Debate"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-06-18 20:49:27 EDT, you write:

<< (doin' good, that about right? ;)  Listen carefully to what she says
 to Perry in the office in OP.  She says that she really loves Clark, and
Perry
 says "then there isn't a problem", and Lois replies "Yes, there is, Perry.
 Have you ever found someone who you thought was exactly right for you, and
 then you found out this thing about them, something you *never* knew
before,
 but you thought could just wreck it all?" >>

Geesh, Zoom, do you have all the eps memorized? <g> You continue to amaze
me!

--laurie
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:27:07 +0100
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Angee Chaudhry <angee.chaudhry@FASTC.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
In-Reply-To:  <199806190607.QAA26177@wallace.hotkey.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0

I don't want to put anyone out by the argument about "British-isms" and
"American-isms" but I find it an interesting subject too.

Because the show was American in origin and that is what it's natural or
rather it's "first" language was - then I feel that fanfic's should try
their best to remain written in terms of the American idiom.

However, being British myself it is hard to know when I'm actually being
British and when I'm being American because as far as I'm concerned
Britain has become more and more Americanized than ever before both in
culture and language .. there are subtle differences like using z
instead of s in certain words (which I think I just did) and the way in
which we say 'schedule' and I have found that most people say it "the
American way" including myself.

But sorry, I digress .. the point I am trying to make is that because I,
personally, forget when I say something American and when I say
something British my writing may sound strange and a little uneven, if
you get my meaning. So ... I just wanted to ask you, my fellow FoLC's ..
how much does it *really* matter?

I'm not saying that it doesn't because I feel that writing or doing
one's best to write Lois and Clark from an American point of view and in
the American idiom is important and at least morally right 'cause that
is what made up each of the character's personas. I also personally
strive for writing the American way but does it cut ones chances of
writing a believable or likeable story if it isn't?

I don't think so ...

This is probably the main reason which keeps stopping me from writing
this one story that has been circling in my head for that last 4 months
and it takes place straight after the family hour .. the thing that
stops me from putting pen to paper or should I say finger to keyboard
is: "is it going to make the cut?"

I know this isn't a competition and that everyone has a right to write
whichever way they choose (ooh that sounds funny :-) ) but it matters to
me as I take writing very seriously.

So .. on the humoous yet serious side .. is there a list that we could
all put together seperating British from the American idioms? Maybe we
should put out heads together and do something like that? It's just a
suggestion.

And as for grammar .. I agree but it has never been my strong point ..
let's just hope I can do it better than the last two efforts that I have
made ... if you wanna look at them then I would appreciate the
constructive criticism on my idiom use and grammar .. then it is on the
Lois and Clark fanfic page:  http://www.ixpres.com/chrispat/lcfanfic/
I know you all probably know this address but I'm not sure :-) .. If
anyone is interested in taking a look at my two pieces, which I hope you
do (however lame they may be) they're called "Touch and Go" and
"Communication".

I have probably made no sense at all and have probably repeated what
everyone else has said but I felt I had to say it because I too feel
pretty strongly about it and it has been bothering me.

Take care y'all :-D

Angee Chaudhry

*******************************************************
Phoebe: Why hasn't he slept with me yet?
Joey: I don't know .. maybe he drives on the left side of the road if
you know what I mean.
Phoebe: Well, he's not British.
- quote from Friends
*******************************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:40:09 +0000
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Phillip Atcliffe <P-ATCLIFFE@WPG.UWE.AC.UK>
Subject:      Edward Bulwar Lytton - Reply

After I stopped laughing at the choice gems that Jenny included in her post
(_and_ got up from the floor), I remembered that the "ultimate" opening
sentence
for a story is supposed to be:

"My God!" cried the Duchess. "Let go of my wooden leg!"

This is supposed to include all the elements needed for a marketable work:
-- sex
-- violence
-- scandal in high society
-- religion (or is that blasphemy?)
-- and even the implication of being PC due to the use of a
differently-abled
character.

Mind you, I think some of the lines Jenny quoted were even better...

Phil
------------------------------------------------------------
"If you let a smile be your umbrella...
   you'll get wet teeth!"
   -- a forgotten comedian, quoted by me: Phil Atcliffe
                                      (p-atclif@uwe.ac.uk)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:14:46 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
In-Reply-To:  <7NmcyMALski1Iwiz@fastc.demon.co.uk>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 12:27 PM 6/19/98 +0100, you wrote:

>This is probably the main reason which keeps stopping me from writing
>this one story that has been circling in my head for that last 4 months
>and it takes place straight after the family hour ..

That is one there, an American would say "right after"

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
| "What's done to children, they will do to society." - Karl Menninger|
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:22:06 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: "The Chicken and Egg Debate"
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In a message dated 98-06-18 17:29:02 EDT, SMcDermi@NAS.EDU writes:

<<
 Well, for the sake of argument, because Superman is the disguise and Clark
 is the real person.  Superman is the vehicle through which Clark performs
 his acts of heroism.  >>

>>>Ah, this wasn't the quetion. What you gave was the company line from the
omniscient viewpoint the *audience* would have.  Not the viewpoint Lois and
others in Metropolis would have.  Did Lois know Clark and Superman were the
same man? No, she did not.  *That* being the case, then what was wrong with
her falling in love with Superman?  It doesn't matter for purposes of this
question what or who Superman really was.  The fact that Lois (like
everyone
else) thought he was a separate entity from Clark Kent is the issue, and
her
right to love Superman as opposed to Clark Kent.  So that is the question.
Viewing Superman and Clark Kent as two separate people, as Clark himself
had
intended, why should Lois be seen as 'wrong' for choosing Superman instead
of
Clark Kent?<<<

Glad to tow the company line.  I'm not often accused of doing that.  Be
that as it may -- no matter how you romanticize it -- I've always felt
Lois' "love" for Superman was along the lines of that of a groupie for a
rock star.  She projected all her fantasies onto him and he played into
them.  I suppose that's okay if that's the kind of "love" you want.

>>>Loving Superman, without knowing anything about him
other than that he shows up periodically and performs heroic deeds is a
fantasy kind of love.  It's like loving the doctor qua doctor, or the
policeman qua policeman -- without knowing anything about the person
underneath the suit or outside of the job.<<<<

>>You mean like Clark falling in love with Lois two minutes after he met
her?<g><<

I thought this was equally "silly".  I'm not a believer in love at first
sight.  Lust at first sight, on the other hand....

>>Clark Kent was not as close to a true representation of who/what he was
as
Superman.  No matter how Clark might have viewed himself as a "regular guy"
he
was not, nor would he ever be.  Everyone who believed Clark was a human,
was
believing the lie Clark lived.  You can ascribe "human" to Clark as a kind
of
default setting since he was raised on Earth, but that gets back to the
Hill
Street Blues quote "you can put shoes in the oven, but that don't make 'em
biscuits"  Clark wanted Lois to fall in love with his own self-delusion.
She
did, and .......<<

I think nurture is as important as nature or Clark should have just gone
back to New Krypton with the rest of the Kryptonians.  I feel it's just as
important how people view themselves, their early influences, their
beliefs, their value systems -- not just their body.  Whatever capabilities
he had, wherever he was born, he was raised on a farm in Kansas by humans.
He is more a part of the human race than he ever could be an alien.

>>Lois starts falling in love with Clark Kent, her best friend, her partner
and
a man she *thinks* is just as human as she is.  She tearfully relegated her
love for Superman to friendship in Whine Whine Whine.  She's decided to put
Superman in that category of "Puff, the magic dragon" the things of
fantasy,
and love a real man and start a life with that real man.  Well, well, well,
guest what?<g>  She found out that *Clark* was more the fantasy than
Superman.
She at least knew Superman had powers and abilities far beyond those of
mortal
men, and that he was an *alien*.  Clark turned out to have all that too,
and
was only pretending to be human.  At least Superman didn't pretend he
wasn't
an alien.<<

I can't accept this at all, so here we will just end the debate.  Clark
wasn't pretending to be a human, if humanity is to mean more than just what
we can do physically or where we're from.

>>But what Lois surmised from the experience is that she
didn't have to shift gears and go back to loving Superman, or try to hold
on
to the fantasy of the Clark she thought she fell in love with, but who
never
really existed; she had to learn to love that amalgam of both personas.<<

In my opinion, Clark is the amalgam of both personas.  Superman is only a
suit.  But, I agree, Lois had to know the whole truth about *Clark* in
order to decide whether she could live with loving him.

>>The
*whole* truth about him.  And the whole truth is, that Clark/Superman from
Krypton/Kansas, the journalist/superhero, who was not human, and never
would
be, but could teach us all a few things about humanity, loved Lois Lane
with
his entire alien/human heart and soul.<<

Well, I don't disagree that Lois had to know the whole story as I've
already said.  But, I never want to deny Clark his humanity simply on the
basis of physiology.  After all the first definition of humanity given in
my dictionary is the quality or state of being humane.

Sandy
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 07:25:18 -0800
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
In-Reply-To:  <199806190607.QAA26177@wallace.hotkey.net.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Trish gave her thoughts:
>
>I thought being a fanfic writer not from the US I'd give my 2cents.
>
>I agree with this [er, writing in the American idiom for L&C --- I just
>deleted >all that, dang it!]. Being Australian I do spell and say things a
>little
>differently, but when it comes to Lois and Clark world I try to use
>American grammar and language when I can. That is that I use things like
>sidewalk instead of footpath and center instead of centre.

Well, as someone who's also a non-American writer, this is what I
personally do: I try to use American "idioms" where possible -- like
Trish's example of "sidewalk". But you're never, ever, *ever* going to get
me to spell other than British English. (or Aussie English, take your pick)
Besides, gotta show those Americans how to spell *correctly*, right?

*grins and ducks*

Leanne
(who suddenly wonders if anyone's done an L&C story set in Australia --
hmm, with L&C as Aussie characters? Crocodile Kent, anyone?)

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:46:28 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      Alternative plot twist for BatP
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

>>Leanne
(who suddenly wonders if anyone's done an L&C story set in Australia --
hmm, with L&C as Aussie characters? Crocodile Kent, anyone?)<<

I've been wondering about a story myself -- *not* set in Australia.  I
wondered if anyone had ever written something based upon all that had
happened in the BatP episode, only with one difference:  Instead of
Superman turning Lois away when she asked if there was hope for them, he
says, yes, there is a future for them.  Of course, he does this to keep her
out of the clutches of Lex.  Certainly, I think a few folcs wanted him to
do this.  And, I think it might make a good story to see how Clark gets out
of that one, while also thwarting Lex who would definitely be on the
warpath.

I know a folc or two (maybe more) have written stories where Lois dates
Superman without knowing he was really Clark.  But, has the idea I've
outline been done?  If so, I sure would like to read it.

Sandy
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:13:52 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Beverly Latham <blatham@HOP-UKY.CAMPUS.MCI.NET>
Subject:      Re: "The Chicken and Egg Debate"
In-Reply-To:  <85256628.004BE49F.00@smtpmta.nas.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 10:22 AM 6/19/98 -0400, Sandra McDermin wrote:
>Glad to tow the company line.  I'm not often accused of doing that.  Be
>that as it may -- no matter how you romanticize it -- I've always felt
>Lois' "love" for Superman was along the lines of that of a groupie for a
>rock star.  She projected all her fantasies onto him and he played into
>them.  I suppose that's okay if that's the kind of "love" you want.

I have to admit that I don't understand the use of the word fantasy in this
context. Not completely. Okay, I can understand that Clark as Superman
occassionally did 'play' to what he knew Lois expected from the man in the
tights . . . but, and this is a very big but, I'm also not sure Lois didn't
know Superman was doing exactly that - acting exactly like a fantasy lover
should - occassionally. I think it might even have amused her at times.
That would only endear him more to any woman, not less, so I'm not sure how
it would negate that she could love him, really love him. And to be honest
about the impact of those intances, we'd have to look at each example of
him 'playing the fantasy' to see what he actually did and what her reaction
was. And at the moment, the only one I can even think of is the air dancing
in the second season and I'm not sure I'd count his ability to float them
in the air as purely fantasy. Showing off, yes, but playing to HER fantasy?
Not necessarily. Playing to his? Now, that is a completely different
argument. I think.

But what about all those other much more meaningful interactions between
Lois and Superman? Do we discount them as unimportant? Where they ALL
playing out a fantasy when most of the time they were simply him being
Superman and saving the world . . . and her, repeatedly? I also can't buy
that she knew absolutely nothing about him by the time she admitted she was
in love with him at the end of the first season. If we go all the way to
the end second season when she makes the decision to choose Clark instead,
the amount of information Lois Lane had absorbed about Superman was
impressive, especially when compared with what the REST of the world
actually knew as truth about him. And her knowledge of who and what he is
was only negated by what she didn't know which is primarily one thing. The
big thing. Only she didn't know she didn't know it . . . so that can't
fairly be used against her in judging whether she was in love with a
fantasy or the real thing. Let's see, just from the first couple of
episodes of the series, was it playing into her fantasy image of him from
Lois' perspective when:

Superman ate the bomb and lifted the space shuttle into orbit in The Pilot?
Which act also told her he wanted to use his incredible powers for good.

Or when he saved her life in Strange Visitor and later told her that he was
there to help the world and that he personally cared that someone had tried
to kill her and intended to see that they were caught?

Or what about in Neverending Battle when she makes the (paraphrasing)
'whatever he can do, it doesn't matter, because he gives us hope' comment
and reminds Clark with one extremely accurate bull-eye why he decided to
become Superman in the first place, maybe even told him something about
himself he didn't know in the process. Sure doesn't sound like the
distorted vision or disillusionment of a groupie to me.

Yes, she craved the 'fantasy' of a date with Superman but the reality of
her interactions with him were a lot more than what a groupie would ever
get from purchasing a date at the charity auction in I'm Looking Through
You. While someone else got the fantasy image, he immediately made a point
of telling her that she didn't have to bid for his attention then turned
around and saved her life. Again. In the same episode, he spent time
discussing the current problem with her and the invisible man, showing he
wasn't completely infallible and sometimes needed help, himself, to take on
the problems of the world AND, and this may be the most important to her
personal knowledge of who he was, he was willing to accept her help.

There's The Man of Steel Bars episode in which he repeatedly refuses to
remain inactive under the court order when people need his help. Yet, he
choses to leave rather than endanger Metropolis any more than he already
might have and was in obvious pain about having to do so. Pain which he
shared with her in a very public forum. If that scene was playing to a
fantasy, it certainly wasn't only for her benefit. But it wasn't, he was in
pain over the idea of leaving and she knew it. This man had very human
emotions.

And then there's the ultimate little fantasy episode, Pheromone My Lovely.
Was he playing only to her fantasy, and Lex's irritation, when Superman
told her he loved her? Maybe . . . however, Clark had just gotten through
insisting that what she'd done under the influence of the pheromone was
REAL because it was her true feelings talking! Can't have it both ways,
Clarkie boy.

As time goes on and episodes pass, her knowledge of Superman only grows,
not diminishes. And the things that happen between them become more
personal and more complete, not less. It would be interesting to make a
complete list of every interaction between Lois and Superman and the
impressions they made on her image of him up until the point where she
learns the truth just to look at what she DID learn about the real him
through Superman and not Clark. If we're going to be fair to Lois over
whether she could honestly love this man she knew as Superman, we have to
look at what was real to her instead of what we know she didn't understand.

Beverly :-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:17:10 PDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Peace Everett <peace9@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Sorry to post this to the list Re: problems with the list
In-Reply-To:  <4179b66c.35898e4e@aol.com>
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J3 wrote:
> In a message dated 6/18/98 12:34:45 PM EST, fchisham@INDIANA.EDU writes=
:
> >    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> >  <angee.chaudhry@WOOLACOMBE3.DEMON.CO.UK>
> You know, I must say, I've always found this message to be vaguely alar=
ming. .
> . . :D
>
> Permanent?  And FATAL???

yeah, fatal usually is permanent -- except of course on Star Trek where =
fatal is just a
minor temporary inconvenience.... ;)

> Geez.  Let's hope not. . . .

Indeed!

Peace
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:45:03 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "The Chicken and Egg Debate"
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In a message dated 98-06-19 10:27:36 EDT, SMcDermi@NAS.EDU writes:

<< no matter how you romanticize it -- I've always felt
 Lois' "love" for Superman was along the lines of that of a groupie for a
 rock star.  She projected all her fantasies onto him and he played into
 them.  I suppose that's okay if that's the kind of "love" you want. >>

That seems like an assessment that doesn't go past seeing Lois's affection
for
Superman beyond the very early stages.  I don't think Lois ever loved anyone
before Superman the way she loved him.  It may have been over-the-top at
first, an obsession even she couldn't reconcile at times, not unlike Clark's
for Lois and one that got her into trouble, and also got her a reputation as
"Superman's girlfriend" with villains. But she did love him and care deeply
for him, and Lois was who he turned to when he was in trouble, or even
sometimes when he was confused or lonely.

Clark knew Lois loved Superman and so she was someone he could turn to in
that
persona when he had no one else to turn to with a 'Superman' problem,
including his parents.  I think it makes for too simplistic a story to say
that Lois was only infatuated with Superman the way another woman might be
infatuated with a rock star or TV star, because most women with that type of
infatuation don't have the rock star or TV star seek out their help and
comfort.  I know it's a popular dismissal of Lois's affection for Superman,
and so I made Perry assess her love for Superman the same way in a fanfic
because he only saw the surface and never saw most of the tender moments
where
Superman not only seemed to validate her affection for him, he encouraged
it.

>>>I thought this was equally "silly".  I'm not a believer in love at first
sight.  Lust at first sight, on the other hand....<<<<

I guess I am a believer in love at first sight, and I've been married to him
for 16 years, but I can understand until it's something that happens to you,
it is hard to believe. I sure didn't till it happened to me<g>

>>>Whatever capabilities
he had, wherever he was born, he was raised on a farm in Kansas by humans.
He is more a part of the human race than he ever could be an alien.<<<

This would all be swell except for the fact that he was a farm boy who fried
breakfast with heat vision and chilled champagne with his super breath, and
paced around on the walls and ceiling.  How much of the Clark we met would
be
different if he had not been an alien, and had not had those super powers,
because even without powers he was still an alien.  I bring this up because
it
seems doubtful Clark would have been a virgin for one thing had he not been
>from another planet ;)  He said "I'm not from here" as his reason for
'waiting
for that one person'.   So, we can assume that Clark wouldn't have 'waited'
had he not been an alien.  How many people can read and understand and speak
over 300 languages?  The only one I can think of might be a guy who could
read
the Encyclopedia Britannica during the Minute Waltz and comprehend
everything
he's read.  Would he have traveled all over the world if he couldln't fly?
I
think that *what* made him physically different most definitely influenced
*who* he was.  If he only used his powers as Superman, you might have a
point,
but he didn't, he used them all the time, and even frivolously at times.

>>>>Clark
wasn't pretending to be a human, if humanity is to mean more than just what
we can do physically or where we're from.<<<<

This isn't about what Clark thought of himself, this is about *public*
perception. Who and what *others* thought Clark was based on what he made
them
believe. It certainly can be argued that what we believe we are is what we
are, but that's also why there's more than one Napoleon in homes for the
reality challenged.

>>>In my opinion, Clark is the amalgam of both personas.  Superman is only a
suit.<<<<

No one decides to give up their life for a "suit".  Clark, in Whine Whine
Whine, was ready to stop being Clark and *only* be Superman.   Clark learned
an irrefutable truth, the world needed Superman more than it needed Clark
Kent.  A disguise Clark had created to ensure a private life was overrunning
and overruling that private life. Even his chance to have Lois love him as
'Clark' rather than Superman was being shredded because he couldn't stop
being
Superman, he couldn't stop running off, he couldn't ... stop.  Clark, where
Superman was concerned, had reached a point of no return.  While he may have
been able to kick the 'suit' into the back of the closet and treat it as
exactly that, a garment he wouldn't wear again way back in Neverending
Battle,
once he got back in the game, he was in the game for keeps, and Superman
ceased being just a 'suit'.

>>Well, I don't disagree that Lois had to know the whole story as I've
already said.  But, I never want to deny Clark his humanity simply on the
basis of physiology.  After all the first definition of humanity given in
my dictionary is the quality or state of being humane.<<<

Nor did I deny Clark's "humanity".  In fact I thought it was touching that a
person from another planet, who was not human and never would be, could
teach
us all a few things about humanity.

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:44:43 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         No Name Available <Larus2407@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Alternative plot twist for BatP
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In a message dated 98-06-19 10:47:50 EDT, SMcDermi@NAS.EDU writes:

<< But, has the idea I've
 outline been done?  If so, I sure would like to read it.
  >>

Or write it? Gee, Sandy, aren't you busy enough with unfinished stories? <g>

--Laurie
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:53:36 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Pam Jernigan <jernigan@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
Comments: To: Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com
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re: British/American expressions, Angee asked:

>> how much does it *really* matter? <<

I think that ideally, the dialog should be "American", because that's how=

the show was done.  Characters in general should have a consistent "voice=
"
to them, rather like Perry invoking Elvis, and the voices we've heard for=
 4
years (in the un-dubbed editions, at any rate) have used American idiom,
whether farm (Clark) or city (Lois) flavored.

However, in practice, the only problem would be if an unfamiliar
phrase managed to jar me enough that I'd lose my place in the story and
said, "hang on, that ain't right...".  And I like using unusual phrases, =
so
I'm probably guilty of it myself <g>

But hey, if you want them to use Brit expressions, you have some good
excuses - Clark traveled the world, and Lois spent some time (a year?) in=

Ireland.  =

I guess the point I'm making is, write the story.  Write it in the
language you know, idiom and all, then try to find a few Americans to loo=
k
it over and point out the parts that made them go "huh?".  Then you can
either modify it, or make sure it's explained in the story (or you can
always tell your editors to blow it out their ears <g>).  I agree with
Leanne that spelling isn't a big thing, especially the subtle differences=

like "honor/honour" and "realize/realise".  I did once suggest to a Brit
writer that he might want to spell "kerb" "curb", tho.  If the story is
good, tho, a few strange phrases is not going to seriously damage it.

And to address Genevieve's point, about viewers who've only seen
dubbed versions... it seems likely to me that people who've only ever see=
n
the show in Spanish, for instance, would write their stories in Spanish,
and with Americans being as hopelessly mono-lingual as most of us are,
we'll never read it -- we're not the intended audience, so the Spanish fa=
ns
can handle it however they like.

PJ
who seems to have waffled all over the place on this question...

!^NavFont02F06330014MGHHGrMGtHG49MG4BHM{0DC3

  E-mail from: Pam Jernigan, 19-Jun-1998
  jernigan@compuserve.com / ChiefPam on the IRC
~~~~~
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jernigan/folc.html
~~~~~
"Are you under the care of a qualified psychiatrist, Constable?" =

-- "The Ladies' Man", Due South
"Women and cats will do as they please and men and dogs =

should relax and get used to the idea." -- Robert A. Heinlein
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:02:37 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Frances Coogan <FCoogan106@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
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What a relief to discover to the Manor Born was shown in the US. -  I was
beginning to think the only British comedies you saw involved John Cleese
(really not at all representative of the best of British humour)!  If anyone
wants to tell me you also saw Yes (Prime) Minister I'd be delighted!

I can see an L&C fic set in Australia.  I'm not so sure about making the
characters Australian, but it could work as a comedy if it was well-written
(and I'm sure this would not be a problem with Leanne writing it).
Actually,
the idea's growing on me.  It's entirely different doing a one-off
intentionally funny fic with misplaced characters to unintentionally making
the characters sound un-American through lack of care or editing.  As long
as
it was more like Crocodile Dundee than like Neighbours/Home and Away/Sons
and
Daughters/The Young doctors/The Flying Doctors/A Country Practice/The
Sullivans/Prisoner Cell Block H......  How many Australian soaps do we get
on
British TV?! <g>

And please can someone tell me whether Teri's pronunciation of "Monsieur" in
Ghosts was as Americans are taught?  It's certainly not the way we say it in
England, and I haven't heard any French people pronounce the "mon" part in
that way, either.

Frances
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:12:13 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
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In a message dated 98-06-19 16:04:25 EDT, you write:

<< And please can someone tell me whether Teri's pronunciation of "Monsieur"
in
 Ghosts was as Americans are taught?  It's certainly not the way we say it
in
 England, and I haven't heard any French people pronounce the "mon" part in
 that way, either. >>

I think Teri was trying to sound like someone who didn't know French ;) But
I
took Spanish in school, so I'd be the wrong one to ask about how French
pronunciation is taught in US schools.  I can tell when someone butchers
Spanish, but not French ;)

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:18:28 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Alternative plot twist for BatP
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In a message dated 98-06-19 10:47:50 EDT, you write:

<< Instead of
 Superman turning Lois away when she asked if there was hope for them, he
 says, yes, there is a future for them.  Of course, he does this to keep her
 out of the clutches of Lex.  Certainly, I think a few folcs wanted him to
 do this.  And, I think it might make a good story to see how Clark gets out
 of that one, while also thwarting Lex who would definitely be on the
 warpath. >>

I did write a story that took this route.  It's titled 'Beau Jest' (har ;)
You
can be thankful you won't find it anywhere because it was something I just
needed to vent and so I wrote it and vented.  I don't do rewrites of
episodes
normally because sometimes the motive for rewriting them is hatred for the
original.   Now I'm not saying that hatred is *always* the motive, but Kaz's
motive to rewrite Tempus Fugitive (since this story was recently brought up)
was definitely because she absolutely *despised* that episode<g> Tempus
Fugitive is one of my all time favorite episodes, and what it may admittedly
lack in logic sometimes, it more than compensates (for me anyway) in charm
and
warmth. There is no episode of L&C I 'hate'.  I may have been disappointed,
aggrevated or frustrated by some, but I could never hate one.  They all have
their moments. The other reason I didn't put the story anywhere is because I
like to write within the show's continuity (all the jokes about continuity
aside ;), so maybe I can put it within a fanfic that gives that aspect of
Superman making the 'beau geste'  but can still fit within BatP continuity.
It might be hard, but not impossible<g>

Zoomway@aol.com (honest, last post for the next .... er hour at least.
Really,
I'm sorry for all the posts)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:24:46 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Frances Coogan <FCoogan106@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
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In a message dated 19/06/98 20:13:35 GMT, you write:

<<  I think Teri was trying to sound like someone who didn't know French ;)
>>

I considered that, too, but the scene in OP where Lois says:

"I'd kill for a piece of Camembert.  The kind you get in France?  You notice
its tough to get good Camembert outside of France?"

implies that she has visited the country at least once and would therefore
probably have picked up such a basic word.  It's a bit hard to interview
someone if you can't address them properly, and I don't think too many of
the
French people I've met would take too kindly to being called "mister"!

Frances.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:08:23 EST
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         goldengrove unleaving <kubitc@KENYON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"

<< And please can someone tell me whether Teri's pronunciation of "Monsieur"
 in Ghosts was as Americans are taught?  It's certainly not the way we say
it in
 England, and I haven't heard any French people pronounce the "mon" part in
 that way, either. >>

< I think Teri was trying to sound like someone who didn't know French ;) >

Whether or not Teri can pronounce Monsieur and whether or not Lois knows how
to
pronounce Monsieur, the way it was pronounced in the episode is NOT the way
Americans are taught. It may be the way they think they were taught though-
my
father took French in high school and hadn't spoken a word of it until I
took
it and thought it would be great to talk to him in French. Needless to say,
he
remembered nearly nothing, including basic pronounciation rules.

-Christy
 kubitc@kenyon.edu
 Attalanta on IRC
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 18:11:24 +0100
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Angee Chaudhry <angee.chaudhry@FASTC.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.16.19980619101446.49ff4c94@vmspop.isc.rit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0

In message <3.0.1.16.19980619101446.49ff4c94@vmspop.isc.rit.edu>, Gary
<gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU> writes
>At 12:27 PM 6/19/98 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>This is probably the main reason which keeps stopping me from writing
>>this one story that has been circling in my head for that last 4 months
>>and it takes place straight after the family hour ..
>
>That is one there, an American would say "right after"

Well thanks for that Gary ...

I'll note that down in my mental Rolodex and it may come in useful ...
:-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:45:38 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      Chemistry (was Chicken/Egg Debate)
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>>>I thought this was equally "silly".  I'm not a believer in love at first
sight.  Lust at first sight, on the other hand....<<<<

>>I guess I am a believer in love at first sight, and I've been married to
him
for 16 years, but I can understand until it's something that happens to
you,
it is hard to believe. I sure didn't till it happened to me<g><<

I've always been honestly interested in this and in no way am making fun.
When you say you fell in love at first sight, I take that quite literally.
So, what aspects of him did you fall in love with at first sight?  The look
of someone without knowing any of his opinions, his personality, his
character?  I've never understood, and yet I believe I've been in love.

Perhaps, falling in love "at first sight" is a combination of not just
meeting someone who you find aesthetically pleasing, but also *your* being
ready to be in love.  If you have your eyes closed to love -- figuratively
-- it wouldn't matter if the perfect person wandered into your sights.  You
wouldn't see him or her.  Perhaps that day in Perry's office, Clark was not
only bound and determined to make Metropolis his home, to settle down, to
make a commitment, he was also ready for love and she walked in.  Kind of
makes sense to me, although perhaps the soulmates fans wouldn't appreciate
the thought.

On a slight tangent, this discussion is making me think of a scene between
Sky Masterson and Sarah Brown in Guys and Dolls.  The lyrics to the song
"I'll Know" are very apt.  They don't really make *my* point. (I don't
think there are many loves songs that would.)  But, they're nice anyway. I
won't post the entire thing here (because I hate when people do that).<g>

*************

I'll Know(the edited version.  The complete lyrics are at:
http://www.lyrics.ch/query/get?s=11457)

SARAH:
For I've imagined ev'ry bit of him
>From his strong moral fiber to the wisdom in his head
To the homey aroma of his pipe...
SKY:
You have wished yourself a real dumb character,
The breakfast readin' books, brother's type
SARAH:
Yes!  And I shall meet him when the time is right!
SKY:
You've got the guy all figured out, hmm?
SARAH:
I have!
SKY:
Including what he smokes, all figured out
SARAH:
All figured out!
I'll know when my love comes along.
I won't take a chance,
For, oh, he'll be just what I need
Not some fly by night Broadway romance
SKY:
And you'll know at a glance
By the two pair of pants!
SARAH:
Yes, I'll know...
By that calm steady voice,
Those feet on the ground
I'll know
As I run to his arms
That at last I've come home safe and sound
Until then I shall wait,
Until then I'll be strong!
For I'll know when my love comes along...
SKY:
No, no, no, you're talking about love!
You can't dupe it like that!  vulgarize!
What are you picking, a guy or a horse?
SARAH:
Oh, I wouldn't expect a gambler to understand.
SKY:
Would you like to hear what a gambler feels about the big heart trap?
SARAH:
No!
SKY:
But I'll tell ya!
Mine will come as a surprise to me!
Mine, I leave to chance and chemistry
SARAH:
CHEMISTRY?
SKY:
Yeah, chemistry!
I'll know...
When my love comes along
I'll know...
then and there...
I'll know...
At the sight of her face
How I care, how I care, how I care...
And I'll stop!
And I'll stare
And I'll know...
Long before we can speak!
I'll know in my heart.
I'll know and I won't ever ask
'Am I right?  Am I wise?  Am I smart?'
And I'll stop, and I'll stare at that face in the throng
Yes, I'll know when my love comes along....

*********
On another topic:

<< But, has the idea I've outline been done?  If so, I sure would like to
      read it.  >>

Laurie said:

>Or write it? Gee, Sandy, aren't you busy enough with unfinished stories?
<g><

Write it?!  I never suggested that.  Busy with unfinished stories?!  No.
There are unfinished stories,  and then there is me.  I'm not busy with
them and they're not busy with me.  We barely speak. ;)  I will, instead,
wait for the posting of Beau Jest and, in the meantime, feel very relieved
that I won't feel compelled to write it.

Sandy (thinking that Lois must have been giving off some interesting
pheromones to have chemically attracted someone who is of another species.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:15:29 EDT
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From:         No Name Available <Larus2407@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
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In a message dated 98-06-19 16:26:12 EDT, you write:

<< "I'd kill for a piece of Camembert.  The kind you get in France?  You
notice
 its tough to get good Camembert outside of France?"

 implies that she has visited the country at least once and would therefore
 probably have picked up such a basic word.  >>

Ah, but perhaps it was the year she spent in Ireland and she just went over
for a fun visit, not to interview anyone.

--Laurie (throwing in her 2 cents)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:20:59 EDT
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Subject:      Re: Chemistry (was Chicken/Egg Debate)
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In a message dated 98-06-19 17:46:44 EDT, Sandy writes:

<< (thinking that Lois must have been giving off some interesting
 pheromones to have chemically attracted someone who is of another species.)
>>

Now there's a topic that I don't recall ever coming up in fanfic... <g>

--Laurie (sorry to hear that Sandy's not busy writing...)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:55:48 EDT
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From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Chemistry (was Chicken/Egg Debate)
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In a message dated 98-06-19 17:46:44 EDT, you write:

<< Perhaps that day in Perry's office, Clark was not
 only bound and determined to make Metropolis his home, to settle down, to
 make a commitment, he was also ready for love and she walked in.  Kind of
 makes sense to me, although perhaps the soulmates fans wouldn't appreciate
 the thought. >>

I think this would only be true if "marriage" meant more to Clark than the
"wife". What makes me think this is far afield from the truth with Clark,
among other things, is when he said "It's not the 'M' word that makes it
forever for me, Lois.  My love is forever because ... because it just *is*."
(Just Say Noah)  Right there, if he had Lois, marriage didn't matter.  His
love for her was forever ... regardless.  Come to think of it, all those
life
goals Clark mentioned, a job, friends, a home, etc.; each he would have
happily thrown away as long as Lois was with him.  I don't even have to
guess
if this is the case. He actually said that he could stand to lose his job at
the Planet, his friends, Jimmy, Perry, but the one thing he didn't want to
live without, was Lois (Barbarians at the Planet).  Clark is very emotional
describing what a home means to him, and yet, if Lois can't go with that,
he'll scrap that too. He'll live in a boxcar or a yurt (Through a Glass
Darkly)

This may all sound terribly unhealthy and probably is in some psycho-babble
profound way, but if we flash forward to Lois and Clark married, he has his
job, the Daily Planet, a home, etc, but, when there's the threat of Lois
exiting the equation (via deathrow) all of the other components without her,
mean nothing to him anyway. "There's nothin' there for me, Perry." (People
vs
Lois Lane)  But whether this is the consequence of love at first sight,
soulmates, "this thing between us" or even mental illness, it negates the
idea
that Lois happened to enter Perry's office just to fulfill the blank sheet
in
Clark's cosmic day-planner<g>  Where Clark was concerned, perhaps 'When a
Man
Loves  Woman' would have been the best song choice ;)

>>>When you say you fell in love at first sight, I take that quite
literally.
So, what aspects of him did you fall in love with at first sight?  The look
of someone without knowing any of his opinions, his personality, his
character?  I've never understood, and yet I believe I've been in love.<<<<

It probably won't sound as mystic and certainly not as romantic as you're
looking for, but I'd been sitting off in the TV room at my mom's house to
hide
away from a party my sister was throwing for some school friends.  After a
while, the door opened, a guy poked his head in the room and said "Sorry,
must've taken a wrong turn."  and then was gone that quickly.   There wasn't
an instant physical attraction, I only saw his face, and only briefly.  I
didn't have an opinion of his looks one way or another. Even if you'd asked
me
a moment later what he looked like, the best I could have come up with is
that
he had dark hair. The overwhelming feeling I had is that he was familiar.
Not
that he looked familiar, since I didn't see  him long enough for that, but
just a feeling like I already knew him.   An instant comfortable feeling
based
on *nothing* at all. Sort of like I was enjoying the company of someone I
wasn't with and had never met<g>  I told you it wouldn't sound mystic or
romantic, just bizarre I guess.

To make a long story short (I Know, too late ;) I sat there trying to think
why he seemed so familiar, then suddenly he came back and asked why I wasn't
at the party. I said I wasn't interested since they were my sister's friends
>from school and I didn't know them.  I told him he was the only one who
seemed
familiar.  He laughed and said that wasn't likely because he wasn't even
from
the area.  He was from out of state but had been visiting a friend and the
friend is the one who dragged him to the party.  Then he noticed a baseball
mitt on the coffee table and asked if it was my brother's and I said that it
was mine == gasp ==  he didn't laugh. He picked it up (I had the baseball in
the glove) and said he didn't know anyone at the party either except his
friend and said the street lights were on and asked if I'd like to play
catch<g>  So, there we were, out in the street, me with a glove and him
barehanded, playing catch under the street lights.  Not exactly roses and
violins ;)

That might not sound like love at first sight to you, and maybe it wasn't,
but
I was hit with such a weird feeling that 'he was the one'.  It was
unshakeable, and yet I didn't know him and I was notorious in my family for
not wanting to even be one half of a couple much less a married couple. I
had
no interest and certainly hadn't been looking.  I was as far away from
Clark's
life goals as you could get<g>  But here I am, married to the guy for 16
years, and I call him 'Jordan' even though that's not his name and I don't
even know where I came up with the name, but that's what I've always called
him and still do.  He's just a very sweet guy who I'm probably way too evil
to
deserve, but that's his lookout ;)

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:19:50 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         Kate Crane <KCrane1865@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Chemistry (was Chicken/Egg Debate)
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In a message dated 98-06-20 13:05:55 EDT, you write:

<< The overwhelming feeling I had is that he was familiar. Not
 that he looked familiar, since I didn't see  him long enough for that, but
 just a feeling like I already knew him.   An instant comfortable feeling
based
 on *nothing* at all. Sort of like I was enjoying the company of someone I
 wasn't with and had never met<g>  >>

Zoom has articulated exactly how I felt when first meeting my future husband
(just celebrated 20 years, boy do I love my anniversary ring <g>).  It was
an
overwhelming feeling of connection.  It started out with a steady
friendship,
and moved up from there.  We're still friends, and though it hasn't been
perfect, (I earned every diamond on that anniversary ring <eg>) I still feel
that bond whenever he walks into the room.
Kate
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:53:03 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Margaret Brignell <brignell@CAPITALNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
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At 07:25 AM 6/19/1998 -0800, Leanne Shawler wrote:
>Well, as someone who's also a non-American writer, this is what I
>personally do: I try to use American "idioms" where possible -- like
>Trish's example of "sidewalk". But you're never, ever, *ever* going to get
>me to spell other than British English. (or Aussie English, take your pick)
>Besides, gotta show those Americans how to spell *correctly*, right?

Or Canadian English<g>

The one time I was actually *in* Metropolis (insert shameless plug here;)
they *did* spell English the British way.  It's only in this reality that
Americans don't spell it right;)

>*grins and ducks*

Can I join you?<g>

Margaret
(BTW Why do so many Americans spell 'choose' as 'chose'?  'Chose' is past
tense, but even in the last couple of dozen posts I've read on this list
Americans have spelled the present tense that way;\  Is it just typos, or
do Americans actually choose to spell it with only one 'o'?)

******************************
Margaret Brignell
brignell@capitalnet.com
Ottawa, Canada
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
My fanfic now available at:
http://www.capitalnet.com/~brignell/
******************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 16:36:24 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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From:         No Name Available <Larus2407@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Chemistry (was Chicken/Egg Debate)
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In a message dated 98-06-20 13:05:41 EDT, Zoomway writes about Mr. Zoom <g>
:

<< The overwhelming feeling I had is that he was familiar. Not
 that he looked familiar, since I didn't see  him long enough for that, but
 just a feeling like I already knew him.   An instant comfortable feeling
based
 on *nothing* at all. >>

But you know, I think this may be a pretty good description of Clark's
reaction to Lois--and maybe even Lois's to Clark except she buried it and
hid
it and didn't accept or recognize it. Some of us are pretty galactically
stupid if we are (to paraphrase Zoom) "not interested and certainly hadn't
been looking."

--Laurie
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 16:38:32 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
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In a message dated 98-06-20 15:51:52 EDT, brignell@CAPITALNET.COM writes:

<< (BTW Why do so many Americans spell 'choose' as 'chose'?  'Chose' is past
 tense, but even in the last couple of dozen posts I've read on this list
 Americans have spelled the present tense that way;\  Is it just typos, or
 do Americans actually choose to spell it with only one 'o'?) >>

Ah, Margaret, that's cause so many of us never learned proper grammar. :P

--Laurie (who would, however, jump to correct you if *you* made that mistake
<g>)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 16:48:31 EDT
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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From:         Chris P <CP13607@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
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My pet peeve is having people write loose for lose and vice-versa.

Chris P.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:01:30 -0500
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From:         Sheila Harper <sharper@CNCC.CC.CO.US>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
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At 03:53 PM 6/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
>(BTW Why do so many Americans spell 'choose' as 'chose'?   Is it just
typos, or
>do Americans actually choose to spell it with only one 'o'?)

The problem is that choose and lose are pronounced the same way, so most of
us spelling-impaired Americans make the logical assumption that two words
that sound alike should be spelled alike.  (Yeah, right.  Just like
sum-come, snow-toe, through-blew.  If you're not a visual learner, you're in
deep dew-dew ;)

<g> Sheila Harper
sharper@cncc.cc.co.us
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 18:21:28 EDT
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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From:         Crystal Wimmer <JCWimmer@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
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In a message dated 6/20/98 3:02:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
sharper@CNCC.CC.CO.US writes:

> At 03:53 PM 6/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
>  >(BTW Why do so many Americans spell 'choose' as 'chose'?   Is it just
typos,
>  or
>  >do Americans actually choose to spell it with only one 'o'?)
>
>  The problem is that choose and lose are pronounced the same way, so most
of
>  us spelling-impaired Americans make the logical assumption that two words
>  that sound alike should be spelled alike.  (Yeah, right.  Just like
>  sum-come, snow-toe, through-blew.  If you're not a visual learner, you're
in
>  deep dew-dew ;)
>

I can't speak for everyone, but I have a serious mental block with certain
words.  "lose" and "loose" are two of these words... I use them
interchangably, and pray that my editors will catch the mistakes (thank you
again, Phil).  I can't give a reason, and I'm sure some of it is that I tend
to "hear" the words when I read or write.  I have been told that this is the
least efficient way of forming thoughts, but it is how my brain works.

Certain words just seem to be mental blocks for me... I spell them wrong,
time
after time, even knowing it is wrong.  Unless I actively think about
spelling
(something I rarely do when I am trying to maintain the coherence of a
story),
they will be incorrect.   Some of my more common "oopses" are as follows...

loose and lose (I switch them constantly)
seperate (should be separate)
layed (should be laid)

There are dozens more, but I have bored you enough.  The point is: certain
author's are consistently inconsistent in their grammar... and that is why
we
need our editors.  I think we all have our mental blocks... some authors are
partial to run-on sentences, or cannot maintain consistency with their verb
tenses.  We all have our weak points.  I know of one author that is awful
about homonyms, and another that writes several people's conversation within
the same paragraph.

A big thank you for the wonderful editors (Phil, Kathy, Georgia... I
couldn't
live without you) that keep us readable.  Having someone who is able to
catch
your weak points really makes you look better to your readers.

Thanks.
Crystal
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 18:34:58 -0400
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.32.19980620145552.0069ad44@mail.capitalnet.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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At 03:53 PM 6/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Margaret
>(BTW Why do so many Americans spell 'choose' as 'chose'?  'Chose' is past
>tense, but even in the last couple of dozen posts I've read on this list
>Americans have spelled the present tense that way;\  Is it just typos, or
>do Americans actually choose to spell it with only one 'o'?)
>
>
Actually I find that the QWERTY keyboard causes many of my typos. It
simply was designed to slow down typing for mechanical typewriters.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
| "What's done to children, they will do to society." - Karl Menninger|
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 18:46:56 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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From:         No Name Available <Larus2407@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
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In a message dated 98-06-20 18:22:16 EDT, JCWimmer@AOL.COM writes:

<< The point is: certain
 author's are consistently inconsistent in their grammar... and that is why
we
 need our editors.  >>

Then, I guess it helps to be consistent with your editors so that they get
to
know your consistencies <g>. Or at least warn new ones ahead of time...

--Laurie
(btw, above should be "authors" as a plural not a possessive--see my editing
is showing :P)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 19:50:32 -0400
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Margaret Brignell <brignell@CAPITALNET.COM>
Subject:      Spellcheckers 'R Us  (was Re: "British-isms and
American-isms")
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 04:38 PM 6/20/1998 EDT, Laurie wrote:
>Ah, Margaret, that's cause so many of us never learned proper grammar. :P

An' I thought it was this here newfangled eddication system<g>

>--Laurie (who would, however, jump to correct you if *you* made that
mistake
><g>)

Yes, you do a fine job of finding my errors:)  Now if I could only stop
making them in the first place;\

Then Chris P. wrote:
>My pet peeve is having people write loose for lose and vice-versa.

I'll say!  There was one fanfic I tried to read that interchanged these two
so often in the first two pages I gave up reading it, it was too
distracting;\

Then Sheila Harper wrote:
>The problem is that choose and lose are pronounced the same way, so most of
>us spelling-impaired Americans make the logical assumption that two words
>that sound alike should be spelled alike.

So, how do you explain the loose/lose problem?<g>

>(Yeah, right.  Just like
>sum-come, snow-toe, through-blew.  If you're not a visual learner, you're
in
>deep dew-dew ;)

I seem to remember reading that Maria Von Trapp, when she was learning
English, asked the question "If the plural of mouse is mice, why isn't the
plural of house, hice?" (I'd say it was a quote but we seem to have covered
that minefield on this list already<g>)  Good question<g>

I spent my formative years in England so I have absolutely *no* expectation
that words are spelled as they are pronounced<g>  I'm dependent on my
spellchecker (which didn't work on my last PC--it would spaz on words like
Smallville and Kryptonite and crash my system;p) and my proofers...due to
the aforementioned technical difficulties, mostly my proofers:)

My personal 'favourite' blind spot is it's/its.  I *know* which is which,
but do you think I can get it right when I'm writing fanfic?  Not a hope!;p
 I *really* depend on my proofers for this one<g>

I think the main problem is that English comes from so many linguistic
backgrounds that spelling and word formation have a kind of panache of
their own--you just have to live with it the way it is<g>  Me, I prefer to
use the 'original' English version of the spelling for words (besides it's
the version my spellchecker uses<g>)

Margaret

******************************
Margaret Brignell
brignell@capitalnet.com
Ottawa, Canada
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
My fanfic now available at:
http://www.capitalnet.com/~brignell/
******************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 20:29:06 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         No Name Available <Larus2407@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Spellcheckers 'R Us  (was Re: "British-isms and
              American-isms")
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 98-06-20 19:49:26 EDT, Margaret writes:

<< My personal 'favourite' blind spot is it's/its.  I *know* which is which,
 but do you think I can get it right when I'm writing fanfic?  Not a hope!;p
  I *really* depend on my proofers for this one<g> >>

thanks for the warning, Margaret. ;)

<<Me, I prefer to
use the 'original' English version of the spelling for words (besides it's
the version my spellchecker uses<g>)>>

Um, and where did you buy this computer? I never thought to wonder before
what
sort of spell dictionary software sold in Canada has. Is there actually a
Canadian version?

All my spellcheck dictionaries get lots of your spellings added to them VERY
quickly or I get annoyed at how many times it stops and asks me about
"centre"
(a word I type frequently).

--Laurie
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 21:28:00 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Margaret Brignell <brignell@CAPITALNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Spellcheckers 'R Us  (was Re: "British-isms and
              American-isms")
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:29 PM 6/20/1998 EDT, Laurie wrote:
>(besides it's
>the version my spellchecker uses<g>)>>
>Um, and where did you buy this computer? I never thought to wonder before
what
>sort of spell dictionary software sold in Canada has. Is there actually a
>Canadian version?

Yes, the software came with the Canadian English spellchecker.  (Of course,
Corel's headquarters are here in Ottawa, so that might have had something
to do with it<g>) I've chosen to use the Extended US keyboard, only because
I can never remember where the single and double quotes are on the Canadian
Multilingual keyboard;\

We should probably take this to private mail, since I'm not sure everyone
on the list is absolutely fascinated by my keyboard preferences<g>

Margaret

******************************
Margaret Brignell
brignell@capitalnet.com
Ottawa, Canada
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
My fanfic now available at:
http://www.capitalnet.com/~brignell/
******************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 18:39:45 -0800
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Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.16.19980620183458.4a4f26ae@vmspop.isc.rit.edu>
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>At 03:53 PM 6/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>Margaret
>>(BTW Why do so many Americans spell 'choose' as 'chose'?  'Chose' is past
>>tense, but even in the last couple of dozen posts I've read on this list
>>Americans have spelled the present tense that way;\  Is it just typos, or
>>do Americans actually choose to spell it with only one 'o'?)
>>
>>
>Actually I find that the QWERTY keyboard causes many of my typos. It
>simply was designed to slow down typing for mechanical typewriters.
>
That's indeed what the keyboard layout was designed for. Typos are one
thing (and I'm one of those people who go back and try and find to/too and
not always find them as my editors will attest!). However, typos don't
cover consistent spelling mistakes ... aren't they called homonyms or
something?

Leanne
(who should really be getting tea, er, dinner, ready!)

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 20:00:24 -0600
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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From:         Debby Stark <debby@SWCP.COM>
Subject:      Re: Resurrection
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At 11:21 AM 6/18/98 -0500, Carolyn S. wrote:

>[snip] Now, I love Virtually Destroyed but who's idea was it to have
>Clark be a virgin in the first place, Dean, or the producers (Debby, does
>this question sound familiar?).

Rumor has it that it was all Dean's idea but I suspect he had it in
consultation
with others and in consideration of the younger people watching his show :)

To check this out I went back to the scripts. I happen to have two versions
of
that particular script, so I searched for various words that are used in
that scene...

                                      CLARK
                 I mean, I've had girlfriends.
(X)
                 I've...
(X)
                       (she waits)
(X)
                 ... dated.  But... that thing?
(X)
                 The intimacy threshold?  The big
(X)
                 threshold? I've never actually...
(X)
                 crossed it.
(X)
                       (a beat, as she takes
(X)
                        this in)
(X)
                 I've stepped right up, gotten a
(X)
                 good look but...
(X)

                                      LOIS
                 Oh, my God.
(X)

                                          CLARK
                 I'm not from here.  So I'm
(X)
                 always asking myself, do I really
(X)
                 belong?  Am I supposed to have a
(X)
                 life with someone or -- ?
(X)

                                      LOIS
                 Oh, my _God_.

                                      CLARK
                 Lois, are you listening?  'Cause
(X)
                 I'm kind of pouring my heart out
                 here.
(X)

                                      LOIS
                 I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm just a
(X)
                 little...  Could we walk?
(X)

                                      CLARK
                 Sure.
(X)

28A EXT. AROUND THE CORNER - DAY
28A

    Lois and Clark walk.

                                                           (CONTINUED)
(next page)

    "VIRTUALLY DESTROYED" (#10)   FULL Pink Rev.     10/19/95
21.

28A CONTINUED:
28A

                                      LOIS
                 So what you're telling me is,
(X)
                 you're a... a... v... very patient
(X)
                 man.
(X)

                                      CLARK
                 I needed to be sure.  I needed to
(X)
                 meet the one person I could share
(X)
                 everything with.
(X)

                                      LOIS
                 And I admire that, the way you've
                 dealt with this... and I also feel
(X)
                 a little...
(X)

                                      CLARK
                 Yes?
(X)

...et cetera.

Now the interesting thing is, I can only find this scene in the "Pink",
10/19/95
revision, not in the earlier "FULL Blue 10/16/95" revision, and I have all
the
pages of both. In fact, it looks like all the romantic and semi romantic
stuff, like

                                          LOIS
                     To get right down to it -- the
                     healthiest relationship I've had
(X)
                     in the last ten years was Lex
(X)
                     Luthor.

                                          CLARK
                     Ouch.
(X)

                                          LOIS
                     Yeah.
(X)

was in the later Pink version. This tells me it was added in a few days
later. I don't
know who did it, Dean or his cowriter (Sean Brennan) or if it was worked out
by
Bruckner and Ross-Lemming or someone else or a conglomeration of all the
writers.
(I'd like to think that someone out of touch with the continuity of the show
and
with how Lois must have felt wrote that "ouch" remark we all thought was so
crass
when we first heard it, which to me would mean B&R-L).

So... was the romantic material in the Production (first version) then taken
out for the "Blue" then put back in for the "Pink"? or did Dean think up
mainly
an A-plot story and find others adding some romance?

Beats me, but that's why I like reading different versions of scripts :)

Debby
Debby@swcp.com
who suggests that you write me
if you're also interested in L&C scripts
I've got *62* now, several with extra pages
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 09:26:50 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         Margaret Brignell <brignell@CAPITALNET.COM>
Subject:      Virtually Destroyed (was Re: Resurrection)
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At 08:00 PM 6/20/1998 -0600, Debby wrote:
>At 11:21 AM 6/18/98 -0500, Carolyn S. wrote:
>>[snip] Now, I love Virtually Destroyed but who's idea was it to have
>>Clark be a virgin in the first place, Dean, or the producers (Debby, does
>>this question sound familiar?).
>Rumor has it that it was all Dean's idea <snip>

I would like to think it was Dean's idea, however, I don't really care who
actually came up with it, I thought it was right in character for Clark to
be a virgin.

Clark Kent has spent his entire life hiding and pretending to be 'normal,'
he hasn't stayed in one place long enough to make close friends because he
was afraid of people finding out.  It seems entirely in character, based on
his past history, that he would stay a virgin.

We all start out in life as virgins.  When, where and how (or even if) we
lose that virgin status depends on a number of life factors including
circumstances, opportunity and personal desire.  In Clark's case, he had
known he was different from everyone else since he was small.  To quote
Martha (WHALTTA), "But you have to understand, Clark's always been
alone....When he was thirteen and getting strong -- really, really strong
-- he made up his own mind he wasn't going to tell anybody."  and then she
says a significant thing, "It broke my heart, watching him having to hide
so much; afraid he'd always be alone..."   To me this meant that Martha
realized Clark's personal choice to not tell anyone about himself
restricted his options for developing *any* kind of intimate relationship.
There seems to be some continuity here <g> since Clark (VD) says (Thanks
Debby for the quote:):

>                 I needed to be sure.  I needed to
  (X)
>                 meet the one person I could share
  (X)
>                 everything with.

Then Debby goes on to quote the "infamous" scene:
>                                          LOIS
>                     To get right down to it -- the
>                     healthiest relationship I've had
>(X)
>                     in the last ten years was Lex
>(X)
>                     Luthor.
>
>                                          CLARK
>                     Ouch.
>(X)
>
>                                          LOIS
>                     Yeah.
>(X)
<snip>
>(I'd like to think that someone out of touch with the continuity of the
show
>and
>with how Lois must have felt wrote that "ouch" remark we all thought was so
>crass
>when we first heard it, which to me would mean B&R-L).

Okay, I have *never* understood the problem that everyone seems to have
with Clark saying "ouch" in response to Lois' confession that her only good
relationship was with Lex Luthor (villain extraordinaire).  When I first
saw this scene, I saw it as Clark understanding Lois' mood of
self-condemnation...and empathising with her hurt feelings.  I seem to
recollect (although I haven't seen the scene in a while) that Clark reaches
for her hand and squeezes it reassuringly as he's saying it.  I didn't see
it as crass, but as a loving gesture from someone who sympathisized, but
didn't want to interrupt the flow of her confession by starting his own
monologue. I've always wanted to know what else he was he supposed to say,
"ouch" pretty well covers Lois' relationship with Lex<g>

Debby left out Clark's next line:
                                CLARK
                But now you've got me.  So none of      (X)
                that matters.   (X)

                                LOIS
                Oh, Clark...    (X)

>From which I understood that Clark was telling her that any prior federal
disasters she might have had didn't mean anything any more since it was
*their* relationship that counted.  (Actually, to be perfectly honest it's
this "now you've got me" line that sounds a bit crass to me<g>  I would
have preferred an "us" in that sentence;)

Anyway, to summarize, I think it logical that Clark would be a virgin when
he proposed to Lois. I'm not suggesting he didn't have the opportunity to
lose his virginity<g>, I'm saying he *chose* to wait for the person he
could be totally truthful with.

I'm not sure what the arguments would be for him to *not* be a virgin,
based on his personal circumstances and desire to keep his secret.

Margaret
thanks to Debby for providing the ammunition<g>
******************************
Margaret Brignell
brignell@capitalnet.com
Ottawa, Canada
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
My fanfic now available at:
http://www.capitalnet.com/~brignell/
******************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 10:56:41 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Virtually Destroyed (was Re: Resurrection)
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.32.19980621092348.00691acc@mail.capitalnet.com>
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At 09:26 AM 6/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Clark Kent has spent his entire life hiding and pretending to be 'normal,'
>he hasn't stayed in one place long enough to make close friends because he
>was afraid of people finding out.  It seems entirely in character, based on
>his past history, that he would stay a virgin.
>
>
>
>Anyway, to summarize, I think it logical that Clark would be a virgin when
>he proposed to Lois. I'm not suggesting he didn't have the opportunity to
>lose his virginity<g>,
>

Other than Cat Grant, has any woman given Clark an opportunity?
Lana? Rachel?
The Nigerian Princess?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
| "What's done to children, they will do to society." - Karl Menninger|
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 10:50:35 PDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Peace Everett <peace9@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: "British-isms and American-isms"
In-Reply-To:  <l03130301b1b032989317@[207.167.64.93]>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> Leanne
> (who suddenly wonders if anyone's done an L&C story set in Australia =
--
> hmm, with L&C as Aussie characters? Crocodile Kent, anyone?)

hmmm.... /me suspects another entry in the Soulmates Chronicles series =
;)
go, Leanne!!

Peace
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 13:36:50 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         No Name Available <Larus2407@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Virtually Destroyed (was Re: Resurrection)
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In a message dated 98-06-21 10:55:35 EDT, Gary writes:

<< Other than Cat Grant, has any woman given Clark an opportunity?
 Lana? Rachel?
 The Nigerian Princess? >>

I smell an opportunity for fanfic about Clark's world travels... Somehow,
I'd
bet that's where those opportunities would have happened. Remember, he'd
already met Lois before he even saw Cat Grant, so that nothing was going to
happen with Cat at all, ever.

--Laurie
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 12:59:10 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         Farah Meitzen Chisham <fchisham@INDIANA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: security issue
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At 10:17 AM 5/23/98 +0800, you wrote:
>Hiya.  I'm a real person.  Well, I'm at least half human with the other
>half Betazoid.  But I'm sure you didn't need to know that.

Hi.  I am having some messages bounce from this address.
This is just a test.  Please ignore.  Thanks.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 13:00:24 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Farah Meitzen Chisham <fchisham@INDIANA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: security issue
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 12:59 PM 6/21/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 10:17 AM 5/23/98 +0800, you wrote:
>>Hiya.  I'm a real person.  Well, I'm at least half human with the other
>>half Betazoid.  But I'm sure you didn't need to know that.
>
>Hi.  I am having some messages bounce from this address.
>This is just a test.  Please ignore.  Thanks.

oops.  I am a big dork.  :)

farah :)
fchisham@indiana.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 13:08:51 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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From:         Farah Meitzen Chisham <fchisham@INDIANA.EDU>
Subject:      QTeeLucky@aol.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Does anyone recognize this person?  The listserv
says that mail is bouncing from this mail box, but no
one is subscribed under this address in by data base.

farah :)
fchisham@indiana.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 18:04:27 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Virtually Destroyed (was Re: Resurrection)
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In a message dated 98-06-21 09:25:28 EDT, you write:

<< I would like to think it was Dean's idea, however, I don't really care
who
 actually came up with it, I thought it was right in character for Clark to
 be a virgin. >>

I agree, and it also became a "raise or call" moment.  Lois and Clark are
engaged at this point, and yet until Ultra Woman it was ambiguous to me
whether Lois and Clark's relationship had become sexually intimate or not.
In
Ultra Woman since Lois has to ask if Clark wears boxers or briefs and he
seems
embarrased that she might have x-rayed him, then it was obvious they hadn't
been intimate and so Virtually Destroyed tried to explain why they hadn't,
and
also leads to the revelation that Clark is a virgin.

Had Dean chosen to not make Clark a virgin in his script (and the early
draft
of Dean's script has Lois asking about Clark's 'plumbing' and no mention of
virginity and Clark telling Lois that his plumbing works just fine) then
Dean
likely would have had trouble reconciling the "loner" and the guy who by his
own admission had never been in a relationship ("that's completely new")
with
an 'experienced' Clark.  Would Clark be the 'one night stand' type?  If he's
never been in a relationship, that would mean any sexual intimacy he
experienced was casual, something on the level of Cat Grant's approach to
intimacy. Dean thankfully couldn't reconcile that with the show's
established
continuity to that point.

Debby wrote:

>>>So... was the romantic material in the Production (first version) then
taken
out for the "Blue" then put back in for the "Pink"? or did Dean think up
mainly
an A-plot story and find others adding some romance?<<<

Well, as I said, in earlier drafts, viriginity isn't mentioned or even
hinted
at. The A plot involving a computer geek, given that Dean admitted to not
being much of a computer person, must have come from Sean, or someone more
knowledgeable than either of them on the topic.  The romantic and passionate
part of the script were no doubt Dean's idea since of Season's Greedings
Dean
said it showed the direction he'd like the show to take, and he mentioned
first season that he'd like Lois and Clark to get together ;)  Besides, what
better way to ensure he can roll around on a bed making out with an
attractive
co-star<g>

>>>I'd like to think that someone out of touch with the continuity of the
show
and
with how Lois must have felt wrote that "ouch" remark we all thought was so
crass when we first heard it, which to me would mean B&R-L<<

Ah, the ever present dig at ERL/Buckner<g> Well, since I loved their
writing,
I'd ask what was the first script that had Clark replying "ouch" to a
comment?
I mean Clark said it at least in two other episodes after Virtually
Destroyed,
and both times dealing with bad relationships.  In STG (McNarama script)
Clark
says "ouch" when reading about Myrtle's fiance cheating on her, and in Tim's
script Brutal Youth when Lois tells Clark that Veda Doodsen's husband of 23
years dumped her for a younger woman.  Now neither of those scripts were
ERL/Buckner.  If they had it in one of their scripts, I honestly don't
remember, they seemed to like having Clark say "Oh boy" ;)   I'm not saying
they didn't post on a bulletin board in the writers' room that Clark shall
say
"ouch" as a reply to relationship stories of a sour nature, but it did seem
to
suit Clark so either way it doesn't bother me.  I only remember a handful of
people thinking Clark's comment was "crass" or insensitive to Lois talking
about her relationship with Lex.  What most noticed is that Lois didn't
mention Scardino <g>

>>Other than Cat Grant, has any woman given Clark an opportunity?
Lana? Rachel?
The Nigerian Princess?<<<<

Geez, just about any woman who came in contact with Clark seemed
'willing'<g>
Mayson didn't invite him away for a weekend to teach him fresh water
fishing.
Alegra Venom, the dermal artist, wanted to work with Clark's big canvas,
kersplash.  With the Nigerian Princess, I actually like to think of her as a
little girl who was at some stuffy, official soiree in London where her
participation was required on some level, and maybe Clark was the only other
person as out of place as she was.  I can imagine the little girl walking up
to Clark and asking why he wasn't dancing, and Clark explaining he wasn't
familiar with ballroom dancing, then the little girl teaching him, maybe
even
having to stand on his feet as they danced ;)

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 18:10:14 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Chemistry (was Chicken/Egg Debate)
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In a message dated 98-06-19 17:46:44 EDT, you write:

<< Perhaps that day in Perry's office, Clark was not only bound and
determined to make Metropolis his home, to settle down, to make a
commitment, he was also ready for love and she walked in.  Kind of makes
sense to me, although perhaps the soulmates fans wouldn't appreciate
 the thought. >>

>>I think this would only be true if "marriage" meant more to Clark than
the"wife". What makes me think this is far afield from the truth with
Clark, among other things, is when he said "It's not the 'M' word that
makes it forever for me, Lois.  My love is forever because ... because it
just *is*." (Just Say Noah)  Right there, if he had Lois, marriage didn't
matter.  His love for her was forever ... regardless.<<

I think you misunderstood me.  I didn't say that Clark was necessarily
ready for marriage, I said he was ready for love -- that he was open to it.
Once he was in love, I suspect he *would* be willing to give up a lot for
that person -- including all the niceties.

>>>When you say you fell in love at first sight, I take that quite
literally. So, what aspects of him did you fall in love with at first
sight?  The look of someone without knowing any of his opinions, his
personality, his character?  I've never understood, and yet I believe I've
been in love.<<<<

>>It probably won't sound as mystic and certainly not as romantic as you're
looking for,<<

No, I'm not looking for anything in particular -- just wanted to know how
you could love someone without knowing them.

>>but I'd been sitting off in the TV room at my mom's house to hide away
>from a party my sister was throwing for some school friends.  After a
while, the door opened, a guy poked his head in the room and said "Sorry,
must've taken a wrong turn."  and then was gone that quickly.   There
wasn't an instant physical attraction, I only saw his face, and only
briefly.  I didn't have an opinion of his looks one way or another. Even if
you'd asked me a moment later what he looked like, the best I could have
come up with is that he had dark hair. The overwhelming feeling I had is
that he was familiar. Not that he looked familiar, since I didn't see  him
long enough for that, but just a feeling like I already knew him.   An
instant comfortable feeling based on *nothing* at all. Sort of like I was
enjoying the company of someone I wasn't with and had never met<g>  I told
you it wouldn't sound mystic or romantic, just bizarre I guess.<<

I must confess I had a similar experience many years ago.  I was about to
graduate from college when I received a letter from a young man which said
something like, "I don't think you'll remember me, but we've spoken once.
I wanted to wish you the best for your future.  If you ever want to talk or
get together, etc...."

He was right.  I had no idea who he was and spent the next few days I was
on campus studying every man suspiciously<g>.  I asked a few friends if
they knew who he was and they assured me he was not an axe murderer.  So, I
finally felt enough at ease to try and contact him and thank him, but
unfortunately every time we tried to connect one of us was not available.
When we eventually did speak over the phone, I didn't realize it then, but
it was during one of the playoff games for the NBA and the 76er's were in
it.  Despite that, he lowered the TV and spoke to me throughout the
telecast.  Only later did I learn what a sacrafice that was for him since
he was quite a jock, as a matter of fact a football player, about the same
size as DC (one of the best things about him, actually. <g>)

When we did meet for the first time -- the first time *I* could remember,
that is.<g>  I, as you did with your husband, had a very familiar feeling
about him, but I chalked it up to the fact that we had already spoken.
Still, it was odd.  Unfortunately, the relationship didn't end happily,
although the last time I saw him was amicable.  I guess what I'm saying is
that -- even though there was an initial attraction that seemed almost
spooky -- after we got to know each other and tried to figure out a future
together, we learned we wanted different things.  In other words, "love at
first sight" -- and I do believe there was love there -- isn't fool proof.
With the emphasis on the word "fool".<g>  At the time, I would have thought
that he and I would have ended up together, just as you felt that you were
going to end up with your husband.  But, in your case, there was enough to
build on and a willingness to do what it takes to stay together.  I think
that's where "real love" kicks in -- it's everything that comes after the
initial bells and whistles -- like, for instance, normality, reality, joint
decision-making, give and take -- you know -- *life*.

I've got to believe that because there's no other way to explain the 50%
divorce rate<g>.

>>That might not sound like love at first sight to you, and maybe it
wasn't, but
I was hit with such a weird feeling that 'he was the one'.  It was
unshakeable<<

I felt very similarly, except he did shake me up a little by taking me to
meet his family on our second date!  Jeez!  (I'm *sure* it shook up his
mother as well as they were devout Catholics and I was a once-a-year
Protestant, with a distinct feminist bent.)

>>He's just a very sweet guy who I'm probably way too evil to deserve, but
that's his lookout ;)
Zoomway@aol.com<<

Well, fortunately for the particular young man I spoke of, he found out
just in time how "difficult" I am.  I guess all that praying protected him
>from the big bad agnostic. ; )

Sandy (gingerly brushing the cobwebs off her ancient history before putting
it right back where it belongs.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 18:14:44 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Virtually Destroyed (was Re: Resurrection)
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The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM> on 06/21/98 06:04:27 PM

Please respond to "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
      <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>

To:   LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Sandra McDermin)
Subject:  Re: Virtually Destroyed (was Re: Resurrection)

>>Other than Cat Grant, has any woman given Clark an opportunity?
Lana? Rachel?
The Nigerian Princess?<<<<

>>>..... With the Nigerian Princess, I actually like to think of her as a
little girl who was at some stuffy, official soiree in London where her
participation was required on some level, and maybe Clark was the only
other
person as out of place as she was.  I can imagine the little girl walking
up
to Clark and asking why he wasn't dancing, and Clark explaining he wasn't
familiar with ballroom dancing, then the little girl teaching him, maybe
even
having to stand on his feet as they danced ;)<<<

I believe I've just read a fanfic exactly like this.... Ah yes, Margaret's.
(Unlike Margaret, I'll  read her stories even though they're *not*
n-fic.<g>   As I recall, she won't read stories that *are* n-fic, and
therefore, can't read mine.)

Anyway, I was going to review her story as a matter of fact.  Thankfully,
there appear to be no quotes in it.

Sandy
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:05:37 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Virtually Destroyed (was Re: Resurrection)
In-Reply-To:  <5f505a7e.358d836c@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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At 06:04 PM 6/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>>Other than Cat Grant, has any woman given Clark an opportunity?
>Lana? Rachel?
>The Nigerian Princess?<<<<
>
>Geez, just about any woman who came in contact with Clark seemed
'willing'<g>
>Mayson didn't invite him away for a weekend to teach him fresh water
fishing.
>Alegra Venom, the dermal artist, wanted to work with Clark's big canvas,
>kersplash.  With the Nigerian Princess, I actually like to think of her as
a
>little girl who was at some stuffy, official soiree in London where her
>participation was required on some level, and maybe Clark was the only
other
>person as out of place as she was.  I can imagine the little girl walking
up
>to Clark and asking why he wasn't dancing, and Clark explaining he wasn't
>familiar with ballroom dancing, then the little girl teaching him, maybe
even
>having to stand on his feet as they danced ;)
>
>Zoomway@aol.com
>

Well Cat and Alegra are both the type that will sleep with anything warm
blooded
and older than Jimmy...Mayson, I wonder if she was supposed to be a
virgin...did
you notice a little hyperventilation before she asks Clark out in front of
Lois
in Lucky Leon?

I don't understand why, based on the few women mentioned, it seems to be
considered
"canon" that every woman who has met Clark was stuffing her keys in his
pocket.
I thought Clark was supposed to have been a loner before coming to
Metropolis....
meaning he never met that many women to begin with.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
| "What's done to children, they will do to society." - Karl Menninger|
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:06:42 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Margaret Brignell <brignell@CAPITALNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Virtually Destroyed (was Re: Resurrection)
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At 06:14 PM 6/21/1998 -0400, Sandra wrote re Zoomway's:
>>>>..... With the Nigerian Princess, I actually like to think of her as a
>>>>little girl who was at some stuffy
>I believe I've just read a fanfic exactly like this.... Ah yes, Margaret's.

I did write that sequence *before* I ever heard of Zoomway's
idea--honest<g>  It just seemed right:)  I'm glad the great Zoomway agrees:)

>(Unlike Margaret, I'll  read her stories even though they're *not*
>n-fic.<g>   As I recall, she won't read stories that *are* n-fic, and
>therefore, can't read mine.)

It's not that I *can't* read them, I'm just not all that interested in
reading other people's sexual fantasies.  I prefer my own<beg>

(I also prefer to give the character's some privacy in their intimate
moments;)

>Anyway, I was going to review her story as a matter of fact.  Thankfully,
>there appear to be no quotes in it.

And, that's a *good* thing<g>  (BTW Thanks Phil for all your background
work on embassies for "The One":)

I guess Sandra can feel safe that I won't be reviewing any of her n-fic any
time soon<g>

Margaret
who has trouble comprehending why people would *want* to broadcast their
private sexual fantasies for all the world to see;\
******************************
Margaret Brignell
brignell@capitalnet.com
Ottawa, Canada
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
My fanfic now available at:
http://www.capitalnet.com/~brignell/
******************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:16:10 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Margaret Brignell <brignell@CAPITALNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Virtually Destroyed (was Re: Resurrection)
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At 08:05 PM 6/21/1998 -0400, Gary wrote:
>I don't understand why, based on the few women mentioned, it seems to be
>considered
>"canon" that every woman who has met Clark was stuffing her keys in his
>pocket.
>I thought Clark was supposed to have been a loner before coming to
>Metropolis....
>meaning he never met that many women to begin with.

I figure it's one of those Murphy's Law things<g>  Before Clark met Lois,
he didn't meet that many interested women.  The second he wants to impress
Lois and have her get to know him better, they're coming at him from all
directions<g>  It never rains but it pours;)

Margaret

******************************
Margaret Brignell
brignell@capitalnet.com
Ottawa, Canada
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
My fanfic now available at:
http://www.capitalnet.com/~brignell/
******************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:28:04 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         No Name Available <Larus2407@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Virtually Destroyed (was Re: Resurrection)
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In a message dated 98-06-21 20:10:40 EDT, Sandy wrote, talking about
Margaret:

<< As I recall, she won't read stories that *are* n-fic, and
 >therefore, can't read mine.) >>

Ah, but don't forget your Season 5 ep, Sandy. That's a very good non n-fic
story that you wrote. :) So if any others of you haven't yet read it, well,
get going!

--Laurie (looking forward to your review of Margaret's story (ies?) since I
thought they were terrific)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:34:03 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Virtually Destroyed (was Re: Resurrection)
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In a message dated 98-06-21 20:10:40 EDT, brignell@CAPITALNET.COM writes:

<< >>>>..... With the Nigerian Princess, I actually like to think of her as
a
 >>>>little girl who was at some stuffy
 >I believe I've just read a fanfic exactly like this.... Ah yes,
Margaret's.

 I did write that sequence *before* I ever heard of Zoomway's
 idea--honest<g>  It just seemed right:)  I'm glad the great Zoomway
agrees:)
  >>

Well, this is ironic, in a round robin fanfic (I know Sandy doesn't read
those
;) I had Clark tell Lois that the Nigerian princess was a child who had to
stand on Clark's while teaching him how to dance<g>

Gary wrote:

>>>I don't understand why, based on the few women mentioned, it seems to be
considered
"canon" that every woman who has met Clark was stuffing her keys in his
pocket.<<<

I'm just basing it on the episodes where women seemed instantly charmed by
Clark ;)  I can't think of many who weren't. Not that I blame them<g>  Not
to
mention that when you move into a city of 11 million, it's a bit different
>from Smallville or Borneo.  Though growing up there was at least Lana and
Rachel and Rachel at least carried a torch for Clark, but it was clear when
Clark met up with her again, he saw her more as a friend than anyone he had
a
romantic past with.  I don't think Clark even fell in love until he met
Lois,
and had no frame of reference for the feeling.

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 01:35:42 +0100
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Angee Chaudhry <angee.chaudhry@FASTC.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:      Lost episodes of Lois and Clark
In-Reply-To:  <5cf1bafc.358da518@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0

Hi Everyone,

I need someones help ...

I have lost 4 season 2 episodes and the last 5 episodes of season 4 ..
is there anyone that could help me get them back .. a trade or
something? Anything?

Hope somebody can help me out I'd be really greatful!!!!

Angee.
--
Angee Chaudhry
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:43:22 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Margaret Brignell <brignell@CAPITALNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Virtually Destroyed (was Re: Resurrection)
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At 08:28 PM 6/21/1998 EDT, Laurie wrote:
>In a message dated 98-06-21 20:10:40 EDT, Sandy wrote, talking about
Margaret:
><< As I recall, she won't read stories that *are* n-fic, and
> >therefore, can't read mine.) >>
>Ah, but don't forget your Season 5 ep, Sandy. That's a very good non n-fic
>story that you wrote. :) So if any others of you haven't yet read it, well,
>get going!

I haven't read much of Season 5 either<g>  So what's the ep called? (so I
can at least *attempt* to find it in the masses of backlogged reading I
haven't done;\)

>--Laurie (looking forward to your review of Margaret's story (ies?) since I
>thought they were terrific)

Thanks Laurie:)  Now where did you say you wanted me to send that cheque?<g>

Margaret

******************************
Margaret Brignell
brignell@capitalnet.com
Ottawa, Canada
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
My fanfic now available at:
http://www.capitalnet.com/~brignell/
******************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:54:16 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Chemistry (was Chicken/Egg Debate)
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In a message dated 98-06-21 18:10:23 EDT, you write:

<< I think you misunderstood me.  I didn't say that Clark was necessarily
 ready for marriage, I said he was ready for love -- that he was open to it.
 Once he was in love, I suspect he *would* be willing to give up a lot for
 that person -- including all the niceties.
  >>

Sounds like the same deal again.  Just being in love or ready for love made
that more important than the woman he loved. "I'm ready to love, I think
I'll
pick ... hmm .. *that* one who just stepped in the office."  Nope, doesn't
sound like Clark thank goodness. I'd hate Lois to be of that little
importance
to him or the overall story of the show.

>>>He was right.  I had no idea who he was and spent the next few days I was
on campus studying every man suspiciously<g>.  I asked a few friends if
they knew who he was and they assured me he was not an axe murderer<<<

Doesn't sound similar.  If it were, you'd have remembered him ;)

>>>But, in your case, there was enough to
build on and a willingness to do what it takes to stay together.  I think
that's where "real love" kicks in -- it's everything that comes after the
initial bells and whistles -- like, for instance, normality, reality, joint
decision-making, give and take -- you know -- *life*.<<<<

That's the important thing, love at first sight, like any other type of
love,
means people do have to work at it and not take it for granted.  People who
think a charming prince just appears and will be great all the time are
kidding themselves.  We had no money when we started out, some people can't
even get past that, and so split up. We didn't, the world isn't perfect, but
if you have someone willing to at least work with you to make a private
corner
of it as close to perfect as possible, then it's all worth it.

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:37:04 -0800
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Virtually Destroyed (was Re: Resurrection)
In-Reply-To:  <3098a4b5.358d44b3@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>In a message dated 98-06-21 10:55:35 EDT, Gary writes:
>
><< Other than Cat Grant, has any woman given Clark an opportunity?
> Lana? Rachel?
> The Nigerian Princess? >>
>
>I smell an opportunity for fanfic about Clark's world travels... Somehow,
I'd
>bet that's where those opportunities would have happened. Remember, he'd
>already met Lois before he even saw Cat Grant, so that nothing was going to
>happen with Cat at all, ever.
>
Ruth Ellison (Rufus) I believe got nominated for a Kerth for her far to
short fic involving the Nigerian Princess ... the name escapes me at the
moment ... she never *did* write a sequel, dang it!

Leanne

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html