From:  "L-Soft list server at Indiana University (1.8d)" <LISTSERV@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
To:    "ARTF@MemoryAlpha.nil"
File:  "LOISCLA-GENERAL-L LOG9709C"

=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:48:02 -0700
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Season 5 Website is now up!
Comments: To: Lois & Clark <LOISCLA@VM.EGE.EDU.TR>
Comments: cc: MicheeZ@aol.com
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I'm proud to announce that the Season 5 (aka "Not TUFS") website is now up
at the following URL:

http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/mothership/60/airdates.htm

Our first episode will be airing on September 28th and will continue on
from Family Hour. Stay tuned to the website for more updates ...

Leanne

Leanne Shawler
aka Volterra on IRC
volterra@sd.znet.com
http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
**********************************************************
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
        http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
**********************************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:01:19 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         Alyssa Mondelli <agmondelli@STTHOMAS.EDU>
Organization: Brought to you by the legal firm of Deceive, Inveigle, &
Obfuscate
Subject:      Re: Season 5 Website is now up!
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<sheepish grin> Um... Leanne is mostly right, except that I did a bit of
reorganizing after our last e-mail exchange. So you can blame her for
being too darn efficient, or me for playing with the webpage in order to
avoid my biochemistry lab writeup. Either way, the Season 5 page is at

http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/mothership/60/season5.htm

...although some people may have already noticed that the "airdates.htm"
file *does* exist. It just isn't the most recent version. That's being
uploaded even as we speak. And you can always get to Season 5 through
the front gate of the website.

Better fandom through technology...

==Alyssa in St. Paul== (agmondelli@stthomas.edu)(AlyssaM on the IRC)
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/mothership/60/index.htm
Web-hostess, Season 5 - coming to a monitor near you September 28th
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 00:26:23 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         Demona <demona@WIZNET.CA>
Subject:      L&C FANFIC ARCHIVE: PLEASE READ
Comments: To: loiscla@vm.ege.edu.tr
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Ladies & gentlemen, FoLCs and SWOCKs, TDOLLs and anyone I've left out!
<gasp!>

As of Monday, September 15, 1997, the archive space which formerly housed
the collective fanfiction endeavors of the FoLC throughout the run of the
series, shut down.   As of the aforementioned date, FTP.IPAHOME.COM will no
longer work as a story resource for the FoLC.

For those of you who don't know or have been hibernating this past while
<eg>, Rhen was forced to shut down the archive after years of dedicated
service, in order to spend more time with her family. :)  (Who were
beginning to wonder what she looked like <g>)

We LOVE ya Rhen :)

And that is why...

....the Archive is NOT GONE :)

The NEW, Under NEW management, but no less user-friendly:

<> LOIS & CLARK FANFICTION ARCHIVE <>

Is now officially active!! ;)

What does that mean?  Well, if you've been hopping on over to Lauren's
front end to "Rhen's Archive" up until now for stories at:
http://www.win.net/~lcw/fanfic ...

NOTHING CHANGES! <g>

The front end is still up, Lauren is still there, but now she has
friends....LOTS of us! :)  We have an entire staff working round the clock
(well okay, parts of the clock ;P) and the collective creative genius of
the FoLC will live on forever...or at least until we all go home and watch
reruns of Knight Rider instead :)

We now also have a MIRROR site, donated by Chris P. which, ironically
enough, is the new home of the stories as well<g>:

http://www.ixpres.com/chrispat/lcfanfic
or
http://www.cryogen.com/lcstories

Take your pick of address, they all work and the stories are all up, just
as you remember them :)

**** Some NEW Changes to the Archive ****

Remember I mentioned a staff?  Well, we figured Rhen and Lauren were
previously handling so much on their own, that mere mortals (such as
ourselves ;P)  could not hope to live up to their dedication without opting
for Hari Kari within the first month<g>

So...a full fledged editing staff has been assembled and fortified by our
Editors-in-Cheif (EICs for short) who are also known as:

Kathy B
DJ Riter

You can reach either of these two lovely EIC ladies or their staff (and
even ME! ;P) at:

LCStories@cryogen.com

... But more on that in a minute :)

I'd like to finish introducing our other senior staff members who have
worked their *steel* buns off to get this all converted in time for the
change over :)   I'd list ALL our staff but this is only one email and
there are many many wonderful people involved so I've been forced to
shorten it down to those whose lives will hang in the balance once story
submissions begin to arrive <eg>

Our senior Online Content Producers who will be taking care of the web
interface of the archive may be reached at:

FanficWeb@cryogen.com

...and are commonly known as:
Lauren W (Lauren ;P)
Chris P  (Cp13607)
Kat P    (Spirit)
Daphne S (Destinyy)

The rest of the staff consists of several more web specialists, as well as
a team of "General Archive Editors", and "Story Editors" ...

The difference?

Well, "General Archive Editors" will take care of the daily task of looking
over stories.  Their job will be to correct any typos, verify that the
story is appropriate (PG) for the Archive and do any necessary
reformatting.  Authors will be notified of any corrections via email and
may, at that point, choose to have the editor make the changes, or make the
changes themselves and resubmit the story...or not :)

You could probably expect an editor to get back to you about your story
within one week of submitting it, hopefully sooner! :) Longer stories,
obviously, may require more time on the editor's part.

We're talking MINOR things here like weird spelling or grammar.  Absolutely
NO style or content-related changes will be made to any story without
consulting the author first...of course!  As it always has been.  General
Editors will only do basic proofreading, not comment on story line or plot.

All this is in the FAQ guys, if you care, please do read it, as it also
contains information on acceptable content, PG rating guidelines, common
grammar tips etc etc <g>

http://www.ixpres.com/chrispat/lcfanfic

Now, as for the Archive "Story Editors" on staff.  They're here to offer
their services in a way we thought might be nice for some authors who do
not have ready access to the kind of wonderful editing partners whom others
do :)  Anyone to whom that applies can send a message to:

LCStories@cryogen.com

And we will assign you a "Story Editor" to help out with ANYTHING from
general proofing to brainstorming on how to plug plot holes to ..... "the
works"! :)  It's sometimes tough to get a story off its feet and we
thought, the archive might be a great place for FoLC to be able to turn to
for help :)  Each "Story Editor" will have an ad which authors will be able
to look over amongst others like it, and you may have the option of
choosing the person you think best suits your particular story needs.  Some
editors work better with certain types of stories or ideas, hey, we KNOW
THAT :)  That's why we want this to be as interactive as possible.  Call it
free online workshopping by some of the best, caring people around :)

There's also lot more in the works and if you have ANY comments or
suggestions, hopes or dreams for the endeavor, things you'd like to see
happen or try out, please WRITE US :)  We're all writers, it's what we do
best! LOL

LCStories@cryogen.com  (general Inquiries)
Fanficweb@cryogen.com  (web specific inquiries)

I'm going to leave now before I clog your Internet connection any further
;)  I encourage everyone to take a look at the site, the FAQ there, and to
stop back frequently for updates :)

We do NOT as yet have an FTP command capable address so if you do not have
access to the WWW via a browser, even AOL's browser <eg>, it may be a
little while before you can access stories unfortunately.  But... we are
working on it and we WILL have one soon, hopefully :)  Anyone have 50MB of
"FTP" space? LOL  Soon soon....

Take Care All!
Demi
___________________________________

  Demi / Demona
  Archive Coordinator
  Lois & Clark Fanfic Archive
  <demona@wiznet.ca>
___________________________________
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 06:21:33 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Looking for Lois Lane

>>>I envisioned Jack knowing (or at least suspecting) but not saying
anything,<<

This would make no difference to me. Since it isn't fanfic, Jack knowing the
secret would serve some 'pro-active' purpose on the series supporting
Clark's
"Superman" side (providing excuses, giving him warnings, in other words,
what
Lois ended up doing for him) All the more annoying is that no doubt the one
Jack would have to block against most often would be Lois, and that starts
sounding like the Ovaltine hour. "Will young Jack keep Clark Kent's secret
from that nosy female reporter? Stay tuned next week kids for the exciting
conclusion of "Superman Keeps Girls Outta The Boy's Club"<g>

>>>Maybe if Jack had stayed, Mayson and Scardino wouldn't have been needed
;)<<

I'm not sure I follow this. Does that mean that Jack would have functioned
as
both Lois and Clark's love interest? That's not an nfic I'd really like to
read<g>

>Lois had to learn how to be a friend, and
>how to trust. Those weren't things Clark had to learn.

However, by the end of season two, it looked like he had forgotten them in
order to
give us a cliffhanger...<<<<

I'd say Clark forgot that by the finale of season one. I don't know what he
was to Lois for the majority of the finale after Lois turned down his
confession of love, but "friend" doesn't leap to mind.

>>>But Clark, apparently emotionally steady as a rock due to his upbringing
<<<

Clark wasn't completely tested for that "steady as a rock" maturity in 1rst
season because he hadn't been in a committed relationship. He knew he loved
Lois, but once she started falling in love with him, the "rock" started to
show stress marks ;) You can have a guy that daydreams he's Bruce Lee. In
his
fantasy he can face a dozen men, and beat them all with beatifully
choreographed maneuvers. He can leap a yard in the air, do the splits, and
knock out two guys at once. However, you take that guy and transport him to
a
dark street, and a dozen guys come after him, he's going to run screaming
for
safety. Assuming he escapes, he'll have to change his underwear at the very
least<g> It's obvious that Clark "thought about this..dreamt about this.."
when it came to having Lois love him, but did he know really how hard a
relationship was to maintain? That you have to work it every day?

>>>He did expect Lois to say yes to his proposal... then he told her he
understood and he'd give her time... then he dumped her... then he expected
her to forgive him quickly... that cute kid had a *lot* to learn... I did
like the dartboard scene though. :)<<<<

Well, that was a nice buggy ride, but what I'd said is that Clark never went
back to that immature habit of impugning Lois's virtue every time he felt
hurt or jealous. As to anything mentioned above, did he say or do it to
deliberately hurt Lois?

>>>We don't know if L&C talked about Kal-el leaving for New Krypton
(they probably did).<<<

Lois said, "We discussed this, and we decided that Clark should return with
you to New Krypton"  So yup, they talked it over.

>>>Their communication skills improved markedly until Sex,
Lies and Videotape, when CK decided unilaterally that it was better to tell
all than suffer the slings and arrows, etc. (it didn't help that the
citizens was so willing as a whole apparently to believe the worst about
Superman).<<<<<

Actually, Lois and Clark *did* agree that saving and preserving Superman's
image and salvaging it from the scandal was the right thing to do. Where
they
disagreed was on how best that would be served. Clark felt by telling the
truth, and thus revealing it was impossible for Superman to have had an
affair with Clark Ken'ts wife since he was both people would be the best
solution. Lois felt there was a greater truth to be protected and preserved,
that of the *public* image of Superman--the hero. Lois could have much more
easily dissuaded Clark from his route if she'd gotten hold of the Bewitched
episode where Samantha gave Darren a dream about what it would be like if
they told the whole world she was a witch ;)

>>>That was a strange turn about for me. First I thought it was something
they
would have talked about before the wedding (when they had time to talk,
which wasn't much).<<<<

Okay, let's flash backward to a point before they were married. "Clark, will
you age at the same rate as a human man?"  "I have so far, Lois" (that's the
answer given in the comics ;) What we learned in Brutal Youth is that Clark
had no idea he wouldn't age normally. If he has aged normally up to
adulthood, why would he (or anyone else) suspect differently?

>>>Second, then she was so overwhelmed about growing old
(nearly a stereotyped hysterical female)<<<<

That's not how Lois felt. Lois was *not* overwhelmed about growing old. She
was overwhelmed by the idea that they weren't going to grow old *together*.
Note all her 'daydreams'. They *aren't* only of Lois being old, they are her
being old with a youthful Clark. Lois says, "I know how it sounds, but it's
not vanity. I don't mind growing old. Honestly. I just don't want to wake up
some morning and find out that we've been separated by....time."  For Clark,
it's another issue entirely. He'll have to live on at least another lifetime
without Lois. His is truly the more painful fate.

>>>I appreciate his sacrifice, but due to her moaning and
groaning, I was glad to perceive from what CK said that his body had already
made up for the difference (i.e., he'd live whatever life he was genetically
programmed to, barring Tempus, Lex Jr., etc.).<<<<

Again, I think you misinterpretted Lois's "moaning and groaning" Also, what
the "compensated" for the loss meant is that he was restored to a 28 (30)
year old physically as Jimmy was restored to a 22 year old physically, but
that his lifeforce had been drained to a point that he had lost a lot of
'future' years. Lois even asks "how many?" So no, he wasn't restored to
virtual immortality.

>>True, considering that everyone had forgotten he wasn't human...<<<

If they'd forgotten he was human, then Clark wouldn't have made an
appointment with Dr. Klein to see if they could produce a child
together...uh, Lois and Clark, not Clark and Klein<g>

>>>Which I see was Perry's job to administer, not some one who had been on
the
job a lot less longer than she had<<<<

The only way it would have been Perry's job to administer a "comeuppance" to
Lois is if he *knew* what she'd done, but he did not. Should Clark have gone
to Perry and ratted on Lois?

Clark: "Mr. White, I really hate to make this request, but I think Lois
needs
some type of disciplinary action."

Perry: "Disciplinary action?"

Clark: "Yes, sir."

Perry: "Well, Kent, I'm going to assume you have some sort of accusation to
level against Lois."

Clark: "She stole my story, Mr. White."

Perry: "I've known Lois quite a while, son, and in all that time no one has
ever accused her of stealing someone else's story."

Clark: "Nevertheless, she stole my story."

Perry: "Uh huh. I suppose you have proof she stole it."

Clark: "Well...no."

Perry: "So if I brought her into my office, it would basically be your word
against hers?"

Clark: "Yes, sir, but *I'm* telling the truth."

Perry: "Okay, Kent, I believe you, or at least believe that you feel Lois
stole your story. The thing is, son, I can't discipline Lois without proof.
If someone came in here and accused you of ....well...being Superman, you
wouldn't want me splashing that all over the front page just on someone's
sayso, would you?"

Clark: "No, sir!"

Perry: "Good. Then if Lois stole your story, I agree, she deserves a
comeuppance, but *I* can't administer that just on your word. Understood?"

Clark: "Understood."

>>>No, Perry, but Perry must have approved of her methods, maybe even
encouraged her...<<<<<

Where in Neverending Battle is it indicated that Perry *knew* Lois stole
Clark's story?

>>>I understand the argument and I guess it showed Clark as taking charge,
but
I'll always argue that this was Perry's job. Maybe if Perry had subtly given
CK the go-ahead...<<<<

This dead equine is down to the bones<g> How can Perry punish Lois if he
doesn't know what happened? Even if he suspected Lois stole Clark's story,
he
still would have no proof she did. This was between Lois and Clark. This was
*Clark* letting Lois know that he wasn't going to tolerate her behavior.
This
was *Clark* demanding respect from her.

>>>To me, it
comes out as showing Clark superior... when in many ways he still has a long
way to go and a lot to learn (which reflects life :)<<<<

Not at all. Clark didn't beat Lois at the "journalism game". All he did was
use Lois's manic pursuit of Superman against her. It was a sucker bet that
Lois would take the bait of that map and go on the wild goose chase.

>>>Does it not occur to him
that it might *hurt* even a strong man? Or does he have no experience
shaking hands? I know TV is visual... and that TV viewers actually do think
about what they see on the screen (otherwise we wouldn't have this group :)
So gags should be very carefully considered...<<<

Average TV viewers know it's a sight gag and that it was done for humor and
aren't going to dwell on, or even consider the greater implications of Clark
slipping for a moment while shaking Perry's hand too firmly. They just
aren't. Rabid fans, sure, but not someone who is just watching for a fun
diversion. I just relax and enjoy the sight gags. They don't bear much
analysis, though I was sent a chat log that had four pages worth of analysis
of the sneeze differences in ASU and HIWTHI. The conclusion reached after
all
that important analysis was that the writers cared nothing for continuity in
HIWTHI because that sneeze didn't show continuity to the first one<g>

>>>*but* who just realized that this conversation has been on the
Fanfic List, so we're keeping it alive :)<<<<

Is this a good thing, Miri? 'Course it is.<g>

Zoomway@aol.com (and I loved the sight gag of Superman zipping in and out
the
window fulfilling Lois's 'idle fantasies' ;)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:46:50 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Looking for Lois Lane
In-Reply-To:  <970916062133_147516314@emout03.mail.aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:21 AM 9/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
> You can have a guy that daydreams he's Bruce Lee. In his
>fantasy he can face a dozen men, and beat them all with beatifully
>choreographed maneuvers. He can leap a yard in the air, do the splits, and
>knock out two guys at once. However, you take that guy and transport him to
a
>dark street, and a dozen guys come after him, he's going to run screaming
for
>safety. Assuming he escapes, he'll have to change his underwear at the very
>least<g>
>
/me thinks Zoom's watching too much Kung Fu:TLC before Lois&Clark:TNAOS ;)

>Zoomway@aol.com (and I loved the sight gag of Superman zipping in and out
the
>window fulfilling Lois's 'idle fantasies' ;)
>
Which scene are you talking about?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
|  "You decide what you feel heaven is worth" - Deborah Gibson, TWYH  |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:55:51 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Looking for Lois Lane

In a message dated 97-09-16 11:52:10 EDT, gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU writes:

<< >Zoomway@aol.com (and I loved the sight gag of Superman zipping in and
out
the
 >window fulfilling Lois's 'idle fantasies' ;)
 >
 Which scene are you talking about? >>

Okay, keep in mind I said he was fulfilling *Lois's* idle fantasies, not
mine
;) It was in Ordinary People where Lois mentions the perfect pearl from
Japan, Swiss chocolate, snow from the Andes, etc. and while she's mentioning
these things, Superman keeps zipping back and forth bringing them to her. To
me it was just a cute sight gag showing Superman trying to impress his
girlfriend. To others it was breaking the speed laws of Superman<g> However,
it's a known fact that the "wings of love" can boost the speed of the
average
superhero and can keep snow from melting even traveling at the speed of
light
;)

Zoomway@aol.com (and it's Jackie Chan movies I watch ;)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:16:32 -0400
Reply-To:     Kassia@concentric.net
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Kassia <Kassia@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject:      Re: Looking for Lois Lane
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The Zoomway wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-09-16 11:52:10 EDT, gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU
writes:
>
> << >Zoomway@aol.com (and I loved the sight gag of Superman zipping in and
out
> the
>  >window fulfilling Lois's 'idle fantasies' ;)
>  >
>
> ;) It was in Ordinary People where Lois mentions the perfect pearl from
Japan, Swiss chocolate, snow from the Andes, etc. and while she's mentioning
these things, Superman keeps zipping back and forth bringing them to her. To
me it was just a cute sight gag showing Superman trying to impress his
girlfriend. To others it was breaking the speed laws of Superman<g> However,
it's a known fact that the "wings of love" can boost the speed of the
average superhero and can keep snow from melting even traveling at the speed
of light
>
Everyone knows that Lois and Clark have defied just about every law
known to man.....and some not yet discovered.  I think credulity has
just about gone out the window with Superman! Why can't we just watch,
love and laugh?

Laughing Already,

Tanya Godinho <kassia@concentric.net>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:35:31 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "Ethel \"Terri\" Addison" <jvladdisons@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: The Heir: Return
Comments: To: satxmover@stic.net

Dear Piper:

On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:42:27 -0500 "satxmover" <satxmover@stic.net>
writes:

(snip)

>First of all you said that you'd been inspired by Peace's story Return.
FYI
>- I wrote that story on my own.  It was the first fanfic I'd ever
written
>so, as you can imagine, I'm a little proprietory about it.

Sorry if I offended.

(snip)
>
>About your idea for the sequel - I like it.  In fact, I liked it the
first
>time Peace and I discussed it last fall.  I wish I could tell you that
it
>was an original idea, but I'm sorry - it's not (although, I don't think
>either of us could ever imagine Lois saying the phrase 'hoity-toity'
<g>)

How is it not an original idea?  Just because someone else thought of it,
too?  If I was unaware of that person's similar idea, then my idea is
original--not a copy of someone else's.  There is also a difference
between inspiration and plagarism, if that's what you were referring to.
I would *never* steal someone's story--if for no other reason than the
fact that I would hate for someone to steal *my* idea!
>
>Carol, I hope that, since you are planning on using my character
(Jon-El),
>as well as the concepts I developed in my original story, that you would
1)
>allow me (and Peace) to read and comment on your story before you post
it
>generally and 2) credit us in the introduction.

Tell ya what--after writing that little blurb I posted to the list, I
lost the muse.  If you want to go with it, go with it.  I guess I'm just
better at the sappy romance stuff, and I didn't see how to work it in
with that story (although I have faith you guys will!).

May I ask a courtesy similar to yours?  Could I see a copy of the
finished story, if you choose to write it, before others do?  I'd really
appreciate it, since the idea--however unoriginal you feel it is--was
something I developed without any help, other than the reading of your
Heir series.

Thanks,

Carol A.
Editor, TSCG
~*~

p.s.  I posted a copy of this to the list, as well, so people wouldn't
think I was a plagarist.  That wouldn't do for a fanzine editor's
reputation, now, would it?  >: (
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 03:03:04 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Peace Everett <PEverett9@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The Heir: Return

I'm posting this to the list for Piper, since she hasn't been able to get it
through herself.
Peace

**********************
Hi Carol -

Neither Peace or I have been a subscriber to the fanfic list til now or one
of us would have written you earlier.  A friend on the list forwarded a
copy of your post regarding your idea for a sequel to The Heir: Return.

First of all you said that you'd been inspired by Peace's story Return. FYI
- I wrote that story on my own.  It was the first fanfic I'd ever written
so, as you can imagine, I'm a little proprietory about it.  I'm happy to
say that, after reading Return, Peace contacted me and asked if we could
colaborate on a sequel.  I'd never met or corresponded with her before,
only read a few of her remarkable stories.  After a full year of endless
e-mails, afternoon visits that went way past midnight, a lot of pacing,
discussing, and not a few tears, I think we turned out a hell of a story in
The Heir: Healing, and Peace and I have become close friends, with who
knows how many stories to come.

About your idea for the sequel - I like it.  In fact, I liked it the first
time Peace and I discussed it last fall.  I wish I could tell you that it
was an original idea, but I'm sorry - it's not (although, I don't think
either of us could ever imagine Lois saying the phrase 'hoity-toity' <g>)

Carol, I hope that, since you are planning on using my character (Jon-El),
as well as the concepts I developed in my original story, that you would 1)
allow me (and Peace) to read and comment on your story before you post it
generally and 2) credit us in the introduction.

I'm forwarding a copy of this to the list, since that's where the original
note was posted.

I look forward to hearing from you.
Thanks,
Piper
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:36:18 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Peace Everett <PEverett9@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Fwd: The Heir: Return

Once again posting for Piper.

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:   satxmover@stic.net (satxmover)
CC:     PEverett9@aol.com (Peace), LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
(LOISCLA)
Date: 97-09-17 05:10:40 EDT

Dear Carol,

> >About your idea for the sequel - I like it.  In fact, I
liked it the
> first
> >time Peace and I discussed it last fall.

> How
is it not an original idea?  Just because someone else thought of it,
> too?
 If I was unaware of that person's similar idea, then my idea is
>
original--not a copy of someone else's.  There is also a difference
>
between inspiration and plagarism, if that's what you were referring to.
>
I would *never* steal someone's story--if for no other reason than the
>
fact that I would hate for someone to steal *my* idea!

Oh, Carol, I'm
sorry for the misunderstanding.  I *never* meant to imply
that you had
stolen the story idea from Peace and me.  It was only one of
several ideas
we've tossed around over the last year, and  it only makes
sense that, if
the idea occurred to us, that other people would think of it
too.  What I
was trying for was a gentle (and obviously clumsy) teasing at
your insisting
that the idea was yours alone (Mine, Mine) ; ).  I don't
think there are any
completely original ideas - just original treatment of
them.

> May I
ask a courtesy similar to yours?  Could I see a copy of the
> finished
story, if you choose to write it, before others do?  I'd really
> appreciate
it, since the idea--however unoriginal you feel it is--was
> something I
developed without any help, other than the reading of your
> Heir
series.

Sure - we're always glad to have commentary on our work.

I'll
send a copy of this to Peace and ask her to post it for me, if it
doesn't
make it through to the list.  For some reason, I'm having
trouble
subscribing to the list.  I tried several times all day yesterday,
and
thought I'd finally succeeded, but I guess not.

Piper
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:37:44 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      A Hump-Day Fanfic... (1/1)
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Rated: S (for STUPID) (The fanfic, not the writer ;)

"Happy Anniversary, Lois."

Clark handed her a very large box.

"What did you get me, a life raft!?"

Lois tore open the box and took part of it out.

"Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman!" she turned
it around "Enjoy the first two of the 88 hours of the TV
Classic where the Man of Steel finds a new life and love
in the city of Metropolis."

"Surprise!" Clark smiled.

"It's about us?!" Lois gasped.

"Yeah, isn't it great!"

"How?"

"Well, there is this alternate universe where our life is a TV show."

"Wow. What are these?" Lois dug into the box again.

"Uh, magazines and newspapers about 'us'..."

"I'm pregnant!, er, she's pregnant!"

"And I just got engaged to a blonde country singer!"

Lois glared "I knew it was a mistake to invite Lana to the wedding!"

************

After many hours of watching 'their' show...

"How come when we make love in the kitchen...our food burns?"

"It's TV Lois."

"And that wig, and those weddings..." Lois rubbed her temples.

Clark embraced his wife and kissed her on the head.

"I'm just glad that I haven't hiccuped like that!"

Lois grabbed Clark and kissed him like he'd never been kissed before.
Calling it a passionate kiss would be understatement.

When Lois released him, Clark appeared a bit dazed and then...

<hiccup>

Lois smiled.

<hiccup>

Clark noticed her smile.

"What are you <hiccup> smiling at?"

"Nothing."

"Well if it's <hiccup> nothing, then why don't you <hiccup>kiss me again?"

A giggle threatening to over take her, Lois covered her smile with
her hand.

"Clark, I don't want to 'hiccup' you again."

"You know what I <hiccup> meant."

Clark picked Lois up and carried her fireman style upstairs.

"Where are we going?" she asked innocently.

"Someplace where <hiccup>I can give you the <hiccup>hiccups."

"But Clark, I don't want the hiccup-hiccups." she teased.

The End...
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
|  "You decide what you feel heaven is worth" - Deborah Gibson, TWYH  |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:06:11 -0400
Reply-To:     nic.hunter@utoronto.ca
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Nicole Hunter <nic.hunter@UTORONTO.CA>
Subject:      fanfic mishap
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 I thought I would share with you all my little mishap at work today. My
 face is still bright red. I am a graduate student in a research lab at the
 hospital and I had a break so I decided to clean up my e-mail inbox a bit.
 I realized I still had zoomway's story "always something there to remind
 me" that I hadn't read yet. So I decided to read a bit of it. I didn't
 have time to read the whole thing, so I pressed quit or so I thought. I
 had actually pressed PRINT.

 I tried to cancel the print command but the screen froze and wouldn't let
 me do anything. I ran to the printer which is located in the rheumatology
 office. It was printing pages and pages of fanfic. I smiled at the
 secretary and started grabbing the pages. She suggested I turn off the
 printer and it would stop printing whatever that huge document was. I
 turned it off, and when it came back on it didn't seem to be printing, so
 I left.

 anyways, I returned to the office a few moments later to see one docter, a
 nurse and two secretaries staring at the pages on the printer, mumbling
 about what was all this superman stuff. I was ten shades of red by this
 time. Thank goodness my boss was away today (his office is connected to
 this one).

 I retrieved my stack of papers, smiled and said it was a great story if
 they ever wanted to read it, and quickly left.

 I guess the upside is that I have the entire fic to read on hardcopy and
 will give my eyes a rest from staring at the computer so much.

 Nicole
 nic.hunter@utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:32:13 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Peace Everett <PEverett9@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Needing help
Comments: cc: satxmover@stic.net

Hi, all,

Sorry to post this to the list, but I'm not sure who is the list mom at this
point.

My friend Piper has been trying to join the list for the past week, and
can't
seem to manage to get subscribed.  (Yes, she's the Piper of "The Heir" fame
-- can we *please* let her in?!? <g>)

Peace
willing to stoop to whatever namedropping
it takes to get this done! ;)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:14:49 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: fanfic mishap

Ouch, that's embarrassing<g> The only thing worse might be nfic printing up
where you worked ;) They'd really wonder what you were up during your time
off<g> I'll admit that even though I get nfic stories at home, I make sure
that I'm alone when I read them. My brother came in quietly one night and
looked over my shoulder, and well, I think he believes me to be a perv
now<g>

Zoom
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:21:21 +0800
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Samantha Santa Maria <lexluthor@PACIFIC.NET.SG>
Subject:      fanfic gone astray
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

'lo FOLCs!

Yesterday (a particularly slow news day) went on a fanfic search via
Dejanews and found many fanfics not located in the archive or elsewhere eg.
Kent: Lost and Found, Turning Tide (or something to that effect), Losing
Faith, On the Run, etc.

Would very much like to read these. So authors of the above, if you're out
there, could you email me, please? Your writing is intriguing and deserves
to be archived for the enjoyment of the many.

Samantha
--See, this is what happens to me on a slow news day. I start sounding like
Spock!
____________________________________________________________________________
________
A heretic is not a man who denies the truth but a man who knows part of the
truth and thinks it's the whole truth -- G.K. Chesterton
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:22:09 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Adrienne Perez <perezas@XTRABOX.COM>
Subject:      FTP Question
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi!

I was cleaning up my bookmarks tonight and found this address for a mirror
site for Rhen's old archive.   ftp://ftp.hartingdale.com.au/pub/fanfic/   I
don't know who maintains it but I tried it and it works!  In Demi's
announcement about the new fanfic archive she said there was no ftp site.
Is this site a possibility?  Just thought I'd ask.

Adrienne
perezas@xtrabox.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:10:58 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Alternate Clark and Lois song
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

If anyone out there wants a (love?) song for a fanfic or
just likes Alt Clark and Alt Lois. I found an oldie and
a goodie.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
|  "You decide what you feel heaven is worth" - Deborah Gibson, TWYH  |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:24:41 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Peace Everett <PEverett9@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Alternate Clark and Lois song

In a message dated 97-09-20 01:19:38 EDT, you write:
> If anyone out there wants a (love?) song for a fanfic or
>  just likes Alt Clark and Alt Lois. I found an oldie and
>  a goodie.
>  =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>  | Gary A. Rudick

Okay, Gary, give -- whatcha got?  ;)

Peace
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:15:33 -0600
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Debby Stark <debby@SWCP.COM>
Subject:      Ideas
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Several people discussed a sequal to a fanfic story. The writer of the
original story said...

>...I wish I could tell you that it was an original idea, but I'm sorry -
it's not

Then the person who proposed to write a sequal said...

>How is it not an original idea?  Just because someone else thought of it,
>too?  If I was unaware of that person's similar idea, then my idea is
>original--not a copy of someone else's.  There is also a difference
>between inspiration and plagarism, if that's what you were referring to.

Sometimes it seems that story ideas occur to several distantly located
people all at once.  They write their stories and submit them to readers and
find out that other people have had a similar idea. I've discovered that
even if the idea is similar, the results can be quite different.

A woman approached me via email with this idea: What if Dean and Teri
somehow got switched with Clark and Lois?

That was the whole idea. It went *bingo!* with me and I could think of
dozens of scenarios. It turned out the original holder of the idea couldn't
work on it and in the end Margaret Brignell and I wrote the story, each of
us taking a world. (The stories are on our sites if you are curious.)

As we were winding up the long, torturous work of writing two intertwined
stories (it took a lot of conferencing via email and IRC), we discovered
that someone else was writing a story with the same basic idea!

Did that stop us? No! :) In the end, as we suspected, the stories were very
different, and my part was, naturally, *incredibly* long... ;)  (and it
could have been longer...)

So the reason for this message is, if you have an idea, write it up. Don't
worry if someone else already had it--they most likely will treat it
entirely differently, if they write it up at all. If you're writing a sequel
or using some mentioned incident in another fanfic story, odds are good that
the original writer will be tickled that you want to launch a new story
based on something they wrote. If you use a lot of their material as
background for your own work, I think a consultation is in order so the
original author can help the keep spirit of the first material. They might
also have helpful ideas :)

i.e., go for it!

Debby
Debby@swcp.com
who finds it difficult to type
while her cat is exploring her desk...
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:25:02 -0700
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Linda Deneroff <lindad@ISOMEDIA.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ideas
In-Reply-To:  <2.2.16.19970920101127.25275b76@swcp.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Actually, this is a very OLD idea.  As far back as the early 1970s, Jean
Lorrah wrote a story in which Shatner and Nimoy were switched with Kirk and
Spock in which we saw how Kirk and Spock dealt with the situation. Then she
wrote a sequel in which we saw how Shatner and Nimoy dealt with the
situation.  (ActuallY I forget which story came first.)  In any event, if
you can find a copy of New Voyages, edited by Marshak and Culbreth, you can
find one of the stories there.

My point is:  ideas by themselves are NOT copyrightable (just as titles
aren't); it's the execution that's important.  And if you use someone
else's idea, word for word, then it's plagiarism.

Linda Deneroff
lindad@isomedia.com

At 10:15 AM 9/20/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Several people discussed a sequal to a fanfic story. The writer of the
>original story said...
>
>>...I wish I could tell you that it was an original idea, but I'm sorry -
>it's not
>
>Then the person who proposed to write a sequal said...
>
>>How is it not an original idea?  Just because someone else thought of it,
>>too?  If I was unaware of that person's similar idea, then my idea is
>>original--not a copy of someone else's.  There is also a difference
>>between inspiration and plagarism, if that's what you were referring to.
>
>Sometimes it seems that story ideas occur to several distantly located
>people all at once.  They write their stories and submit them to readers
and
>find out that other people have had a similar idea. I've discovered that
>even if the idea is similar, the results can be quite different.
>
>A woman approached me via email with this idea: What if Dean and Teri
>somehow got switched with Clark and Lois?
>
>That was the whole idea. It went *bingo!* with me and I could think of
>dozens of scenarios. It turned out the original holder of the idea couldn't
>work on it and in the end Margaret Brignell and I wrote the story, each of
>us taking a world. (The stories are on our sites if you are curious.)
>
>As we were winding up the long, torturous work of writing two intertwined
>stories (it took a lot of conferencing via email and IRC), we discovered
>that someone else was writing a story with the same basic idea!
>
>Did that stop us? No! :) In the end, as we suspected, the stories were very
>different, and my part was, naturally, *incredibly* long... ;)  (and it
>could have been longer...)
>
>So the reason for this message is, if you have an idea, write it up. Don't
>worry if someone else already had it--they most likely will treat it
>entirely differently, if they write it up at all. If you're writing a
sequel
>or using some mentioned incident in another fanfic story, odds are good
that
>the original writer will be tickled that you want to launch a new story
>based on something they wrote. If you use a lot of their material as
>background for your own work, I think a consultation is in order so the
>original author can help the keep spirit of the first material. They might
>also have helpful ideas :)
>
>i.e., go for it!
>
>Debby
>Debby@swcp.com
>who finds it difficult to type
>while her cat is exploring her desk...
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:35:05 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "Ethel \"Terri\" Addison" <jvladdisons@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: LOISCLA-GENERAL-L Digest - 17 Sep 1997 to 18 Sep 1997

Nicole Hunter wrote:
>
>I am a graduate student in a research lab at the
> hospital and I had a break so I decided to clean up my e-mail inbox a
bit.
> I realized I still had zoomway's story "always something there to
remind
> me" that I hadn't read yet. So I decided to read a bit of it. I didn't
> have time to read the whole thing, so I pressed quit or so I thought. I
> had actually pressed PRINT.

I mix up the buttons on my e-mail software all the time--especially when
I'm tired.  Ain't it a pain?  So far I've been lucky enough to avoid
deleting a message by mistake.  That would really suck--especially if
it's a message about my zine.
>
> I smiled at the secretary and started grabbing the pages.   (SNIP)  I
> turned it off, and when it came back on it didn't seem to be printing,
so
> I left.  I returned to the office a few moments later to see one
docter, a
> nurse and two secretaries staring at the pages on the printer, mumbling
> about what was all this superman stuff. I was ten shades of red by this
> time.

(SNIP)

> I retrieved my stack of papers, smiled and said it was a great story if
> they ever wanted to read it, and quickly left.

BEWARE:  If they weren't smiling back at you, your boss may yet hear of
the incident.  You could be in trouble for using work equipment for
personal stuff.  I've gotten fired from a job in the past for this.  If
this particular incident doesn't result in loss of your job (and I pray
it doesn't), my friendly advice is to print your personal stuff out at
Kinko's.  Sure, it costs money, but not as much as it would if you lost
your job.

Take it from someone who learned the hard way.  You'd be amazed how many
eyes are watching you, and how things can get back to your boss, whether
he/she is there or not.

Sincerely,
Carol A.
Editor, TSCG
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 18:21:04 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Breezy Walsh <Breezae@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ideas

<< Sometimes it seems that story ideas occur to several distantly located
 people all at once.  >>
   I know that this has happned to me a few times, I wrote a fanfic about 2
and a half years ago along the basis of what would happen if Lois and Clark
were to switch with Teri and Dean and this was before I had been online. It
was about forty pages long.
   My english teacher read it and gave me a grade on it, but aked me if I
ever went online because she had read a story very similar to mine and I
told
her that I had never once been online and since that point on every time I
come up with an idea and start writing it I seem to find one that has the
same basic idea, but they have a totally different out look on it. Sometimes
I think,"Wow, I wish I had thought of that," and sometimes I think, "I like
my idea better." So I think using the same idea for two different stories is
an excellent way of comparing writing styles, techniques, and all that other
fun stuff and in no way is it plagerism, unless you take someone's story
word
for word up until a point, but remember if you get their permission, it's
ok....

    Hmmm, did I make all my points? I hope so, oh well,
   Love ya all,
     Breezy "I'm wearing my S on my chest" Walsh
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Sep 1997 23:32:17 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Kathy Brown <kbrown@TOOLCITY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ideas
In-Reply-To:  <2.2.16.19970920101127.25275b76@swcp.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 10:15 AM -0600 9/20/97, Debby Stark summarized,

>Several people discussed a sequal to a fanfic story. The writer of the
>original story said...
>
>>...I wish I could tell you that it was an original idea, but I'm sorry -
>it's not
>
>Then the person who proposed to write a sequal said...
>
>>How is it not an original idea?  Just because someone else thought of it,
>>too?  If I was unaware of that person's similar idea, then my idea is
>>original--not a copy of someone else's.  There is also a difference
>>between inspiration and plagarism, if that's what you were referring to.

I think that the orginal author's comment was just meant to inform the
person interested in writing a sequel that the orginal author was already
planning a sequel along those same lines.  I did not in any way interpret
the original author's post as accusing the second writer of "stealing her
idea" -- only notifying the second writer (via a private email, btw, which
the second writer chose to post to this list) that a sequel along those
same lines was already in the works.

Yes, many of us have similar idea on fic, and the results are usually
totally different.  And, as Linda stated, *ideas* are not copyrightable.

So far, we agree.

<snip Debby's description of the creation of her and Margaret's "Swap
Meet", though I will add a plug - if you haven't read it yet, do so.  It is
long, but it's also a very creative and well-written, and you won't regret
reading it. A very enjoyable story.>

>So the reason for this message is, if you have an idea, write it up. Don't
>worry if someone else already had it--they most likely will treat it
>entirely differently, if they write it up at all.

Yes, good advice. :)

>If you're writing a sequel
>or using some mentioned incident in another fanfic story, odds are good
that
>the original writer will be tickled that you want to launch a new story
>based on something they wrote.

This is where we disagree, however.  I think many writers would be tickled,
but there are many who wouldn't.

For example, I talked to one fanfic writer recently who told me that she
was upset when someone wrote a sequel to her fanfic because "it was the
exact sequel that I *didn't* want written", taking her story in a
completely different direction than she had pictured.

I myself had someone ask me if they could write a sequel to one of my
stories, and I declined.  This person was a good friend, and I wasn't upset
by her asking (and, in fact, really appreciated that she asked and didn't
just do it against my wishes), but I had an idea for where I wanted to go
with that "universe" and want to be able to explore that direction myself.

It is flattering, no doubt about it.  And I appreciated the interest, very
much so.  But I still wanted to keep sequel right for myself.  And I know
I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Would I take legal action against my fellow FoLC for copyright
infringement?  No, of course not.  This isn't about "what's legal".

But would I be annoyed if my fic was continued without my permission?  Yes,
I would be.

> If you use a lot of their material as
>background for your own work, I think a consultation is in order so the
>original author can help the keep spirit of the first material. They might
>also have helpful ideas :)

And we are back to agreeing.

I just think people who are interested in writing a sequel to someone's
fanfic should ask that person first if it would be OK.  I'm not talking
about "gee, I really liked this fanfic, but I wonder what would happen if
it went in a different direction at this point of the story?", and the
person ends up writing a completely different story with a similar premise.

I'm talking about someone who writes in the intro to their story "I loved
the fanfic X so I decided to write a sequel called X2, which picks up where
that one left off."

Or, "I really like Dawning up until chapter 7, but then the author took it
in a different direction than I would have, so I'm taking that universe and
writing my own stories for it.  I call this one Dawning 8A." <vbg>

There is absolutely nothing wrong with either of these examples if the
author of the first fic doesn't mind.  I've read sequels from non-orginal
authors that have been great and in keeping with the orginal, even one
giving an "unhappy ending" story a "happy ending".  I've also seen notes at
the beginning of a story that say "I approached the orginal author with
this sequel idea and they told me to write it since they didn't have the
time."

I think it's great that people will pass off characters/story set-up when
they are done with them, or don't have the time or interest to continue
with the universe.

But when the orginal author says "thanks for your interest, but I really
want to keep this universe for myself and write my own sequel to this
story", I think other fic writers should respect that.

>i.e., go for it!

Within reason. ;)

Kathy

______________________
Kathy Brown
kbrown@toolcity.net
<http://www.toolcity.net/~kbrown/>
KathyB on IRC
______________________
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 17:45:07 +1000
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Jenny Stosser <jenerate@OZRAMP.NET.AU>
Subject:      Re: Ideas
In-Reply-To:  <2.2.16.19970920101127.25275b76@swcp.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sorry I'm a little late with this reply, especially since this post has
encouraged so much interesting comment from others, but onward ho!

At 10:15 AM 20/09/97 -0600, Debby Stark wrote:
>Several people discussed a sequal to a fanfic story. The writer of the
>original story said...
>
>>...I wish I could tell you that it was an original idea, but I'm sorry -
>it's not
>
>Then the person who proposed to write a sequal said...
>
>>How is it not an original idea?  Just because someone else thought of it,
>>too?  If I was unaware of that person's similar idea, then my idea is
>>original--not a copy of someone else's.  There is also a difference
>>between inspiration and plagarism, if that's what you were referring to.
>
>Sometimes it seems that story ideas occur to several distantly located
>people all at once.  They write their stories and submit them to readers
and
>find out that other people have had a similar idea. I've discovered that
>even if the idea is similar, the results can be quite different.
>
>A woman approached me via email with this idea: What if Dean and Teri
>somehow got switched with Clark and Lois?
>
>That was the whole idea. It went *bingo!* with me and I could think of
>dozens of scenarios. It turned out the original holder of the idea couldn't
>work on it and in the end Margaret Brignell and I wrote the story, each of
>us taking a world. (The stories are on our sites if you are curious.)
>
>As we were winding up the long, torturous work of writing two intertwined
>stories (it took a lot of conferencing via email and IRC), we discovered
>that someone else was writing a story with the same basic idea!

that wouldn't happen to have been me, would it? <g>

>Did that stop us? No! :) In the end, as we suspected, the stories were very
>different, and my part was, naturally, *incredibly* long... ;)  (and it
>could have been longer...)
>
>So the reason for this message is, if you have an idea, write it up. Don't
>worry if someone else already had it--they most likely will treat it
>entirely differently, if they write it up at all. If you're writing a
sequel
>or using some mentioned incident in another fanfic story, odds are good
that
>the original writer will be tickled that you want to launch a new story
>based on something they wrote. If you use a lot of their material as
>background for your own work, I think a consultation is in order so the
>original author can help the keep spirit of the first material. They might
>also have helpful ideas :)
>
>i.e., go for it!
>
>Debby
>Debby@swcp.com
>who finds it difficult to type
>while her cat is exploring her desk...

I could the same thing about Megan wanting to play with the computer but I
won't <g>

For those who came in late, and were wondering what other story there was
that dealt with Dean and Clark being swapped, my story, "...the Chicken or
the Egg", written without even hearing about Debby & Margaret's most
enjoyable efforts, and with much discussion with many many folcs, mainly on
IRC, but also elsewhere, and with a whole chapter written by Tracey Barlow,
(phew! is that enough acknowledgement? <G>) is available directly from me
in Word format (which is the way I prefer to have it read, or at my webpage
in .txt format, or on my webpage in 3 installments.  It's also available in
the MacWombat Press imprint The Continuing Adventures...! Email me when
you've read it for comments!

--
Jenny Stosser -*- jenerate@ozramp.net.au -*- (Jenerator or MoiAussie on IRC)
This message is umop ap!sdn -*- David is 5 and Megan is 2! Photos on the
web-page!
Visit the Stosser Family HomePage: http://www.ozramp.net.au/~jenerate
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:50:29 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Ideas
In-Reply-To:  <l03010d00b049e391a24b@[208.0.188.157]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:32 PM 9/20/97 -0400, Kathy Brown wrote:
>
>There is absolutely nothing wrong with either of these examples if the
>author of the first fic doesn't mind.  I've read sequels from non-orginal
>authors that have been great and in keeping with the orginal, even one
>giving an "unhappy ending" story a "happy ending".
>
I'm going to be bold and assume Kathy meant my "Paradox of Failure" sequel
to "Like Pieces of a Puzzle That Don't Quite Fit..." by Kristi Gutknecht
which was a sequel to  "Winter's Tale" by Ruth Ellison. (Did you follow
that?)

Anyway, when I was planning the sequel I felt that my story relied heavily
on
"Puzzle" and very little on "Winter's Tale". I did not contact Ruth Ellison,
and all attempts to email Kristi Gutknecht bounced back.

Of course someone who I won't mention raked me over the coals for the
sequel,
"he" really liked "Puzzle" and accused me of all sorts of nefarious crimes.

But Ruth did write to me that she was surprised that someone had written
"Puzzle"
as a sequel to her story.

So I guess the moral of the story is...oh wait, I have to check to see if I
can use
this...I'll be back....
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:01:49 -0600
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Debby Stark <debby@SWCP.COM>
Subject:      Dawning 17
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sure is nice to be part of list where I can send a message with the name of
one of my works in the title :)

At the same time I upload this message, I'll also be uploading #17
(subtitled "Picture this...") in my saga to my site, at

     ftp://ftp.swcp.com/pub/users/dstark Stories

If you haven't read any of this series, be sure to start from the beginning.

On my site it will be in txt and zipped-up txt.

I can also email it in parts, or send it as an attachment (txt, zipped text,
or zipped Word for Windows 6.0a with the *starred* words in italics :)

It is not X-rated... though X-ray vision is used once or twice :)

Debby
Debby@swcp.com
ftp://ftp.swcp.com/pub/users/dstark

     ...whew!
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 15:47:39 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Peace Everett <PEverett9@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ideas

In a message dated 97-09-21 10:53:19 EDT, you write:
> I'm going to be bold and assume Kathy meant my "Paradox of Failure" sequel
>  to "Like Pieces of a Puzzle That Don't Quite Fit..." by Kristi Gutknecht
>  which was a sequel to  "Winter's Tale" by Ruth Ellison. (Did you follow
that?)

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

Hi Gary,

I remember when your story came out.  I hadn't read either of the previous
two stories, but one of the first lines of yours was "It was a year since
the
divorce" or words to that effect.  Well, I closed the file right then and
went to work *very* depressed -- just that thought really tore me up (who
me?
too involved? nah... ;)

Eventually I read the other two stories and then yours and was *so* relieved
by your resolution.

>  Anyway, when I was planning the sequel I felt that my story relied
heavily
on
>  "Puzzle" and very little on "Winter's Tale". I did not contact Ruth
Ellison,
>  and all attempts to email Kristi Gutknecht bounced back.

I'm not entirely sure why Kristi wrote "Puzzle" -- WT did end on a down
note,
but that doesn't automatically mean the characters are on their way to
divorce court.  Kristi's stories in general seem to be along the lines of
hurt without the comfort.

>  Of course someone who I won't mention raked me over the coals for the
sequel,
>  "he" really liked "Puzzle" and accused me of all sorts of nefarious
crimes.

Someone *liked* "Puzzle"?  Well, there's no accounting for taste... ;)
Sorry
if that borders on a flame of that story, but I really *didn't* like it.

>But Ruth did write to me that she was surprised that someone had written
>"Puzzle" as a sequel to her story.

Well, as long has she wasn't upset about your resolution, I'd say you're in
the clear, Gary -- I'm certainly glad you provided the comfort for that
painful little story.

Peace
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 18:29:13 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Alyssa Mondelli <agmondelli@STTHOMAS.EDU>
Organization: Brought to you by the legal firm of Deceive, Inveigle, &
Obfuscate
Subject:      Re: Ideas (contains SPOILERS for several stories)
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Peace Everett wrote:

> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E

> I'm not entirely sure why Kristi wrote "Puzzle" -- WT did end on a down
note,
> but that doesn't automatically mean the characters are on their way to
> divorce court.  Kristi's stories in general seem to be along the lines of
> hurt without the comfort.

The second time I read Winter's Tale, I liked the ending. There's no
real resolution, but L&C seem willing to work toward one, or at least
some kind of compromise. But the first time I read it, it felt an awful
lot like a WHAM.

And "Puzzle" broke my heart. I'm not being melodramatic here. I can
count on one hand the stories that have made me cry (including movies,
TV, and books) and this one came darn close. Actually this is kind of a
backhanded compliment to Kristi (is she still around?) - it hurt so much
because this is *exactly* the worst-case scenario I can picture for our
L&C. It's true to the characters as we know them - if they fell apart,
this is how it would happen. It was days before I could feel hopeful
about them being together again.

Peace's "hurt without the comfort" comment sums it up perfectly. I've
been trying to write a follow-up to "Molly" for <she mumbles under her
breath...> well, awhile now :-> because it left such an odd taste in my
mouth when I read it. A character is introduced just so she can die and
the others can suffer - we never get to know her or have any sense of
resolution. Kristi offered a sequel of her own in the endnotes but as
far as I know she never wrote it, and it seems like such a cruel thing
to leave unfinished.

Back to discussion #1 - I haven't asked Kristi about doing this because
(a) I haven't seen her around the list in ages and (b) the way I write
fiction, it *may* be finished before TNT drops the reruns from their
lineup. Maybe. But I always intended to track her down before I let
anyone else read the finished product, since it would be a direct sequel
and not simply a takeoff on her basic idea - a distinction others have
mentioned.

Oh, and have I mentioned in this post that Season 5 (one of the many)
starts next Sunday? 563 FoLCs have been to the web page - don't you want
to be in with the in crowd? ;-> The address below will get you there.
/end shameless-plug

==Alyssa in St. Paul== (agmondelli@stthomas.edu)(AlyssaM on the IRC)
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/mothership/60/index.htm
"Ah yes... Coffee and the student.  Those two words go together like
bread and butter.  Although, I wonder why we even bother brewing it.
We could just eat the beans whole or grind them up and spread them on
toast.  It'd save us the cost of the filters."
   --Nancy Lemieux, "Jumeaux"
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:36:16 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> Incorrect or incomplete address field found
and
              ignored.
From:         Pam Jernigan <jernigan@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ideas
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Peace wrote:

>> I'm not entirely sure why Kristi wrote "Puzzle" -- WT did end on a
down note,
but that doesn't automatically mean the characters are on their way to
divorce court.  Kristi's stories in general seem to be along the lines of=

hurt without the comfort. <<

I have to jump in here... I was *so* depressed and angered by that story
(even though I'd liked A Winter's Tale) that I went off and wrote an
antidote of sorts - Quiet Night (since it wasn't a direct sequel, I didn'=
t
even think to ask anyone's permission).  I, too, was glad to see Gary had=

pulled out a reconciliation... =

Anyway, that's the longest string of fanfic stories that I know of
that weren't written by the same author <g> so it's interesting just on
that basis. (Was Kristi the one who wrote "Molly"?  That story was beyond=

depressing; it was actively impossible.  No way would Clark let his
daughter be killed, even if it involved showing his powers to the world)

And when Kathy mentioned " I've read sequels from non-orginal authors
that have been great and in keeping with the orginal, even one giving an
"unhappy ending" story a "happy ending".  " I immediately thought of
Zoomway's "If you can't beat 'em (Joe's Story)" and "Join 'em" by Kari
Umbrect??  I still don't like the original (sorry, Zoomway! <g>) but the
sequel is very nice, and fits nicely with the original.

PJ =

blathering on... <g>

!^NavFont02F0467000FMGUHGD9MGDBHK68D1DA

  E-mail from: Pam Jernigan, 21-Sep-1997
  jernigan@compuserve.com / ChiefPam on the IRC
~~~~~
Unreformed, unrepentent, sometimes unproductive but never uninteresting
<g> fanfic writer =

Visit Sarah & Pam's Shrine o'Fanfic at:
 http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/2501
~~~~~
Lois and Clark Season 5 Fanfic:
     http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/mothership/60/season5.htm
~~~~~
"The first thing she said to me was 'Herbie, get me to the Planet.'
 Naturally, I wondered which planet..."
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:19:26 -0600
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Debby Stark <debby@SWCP.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ideas
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:32 PM 9/20/97 -0400, Kathy wrote:

[snip lotsa stuff, including nice plug for my story, thanks!]

[I wrote...]

>>If you're writing a sequel
>>or using some mentioned incident in another fanfic story, odds are good
that
>>the original writer will be tickled that you want to launch a new story
>>based on something they wrote.

>This is where we disagree, however.  I think many writers would be tickled,
>but there are many who wouldn't.

[KB gives some good examples]

>But would I be annoyed if my fic was continued without my permission?  Yes,
>I would be.

I think if a person has a good idea inspired by another person's fanfic
story, yet that other person is against person B writing a new story based
on their story... keep the idea in mind and try approaching it from another
direction without any references to the first story.  This will give the
budding writer practice in pleasing tough editors as well as pleasing
themselves.  The resulting stand-alone story may turn out to be better than
the sequel.

>Or, "I really like Dawning up until chapter 7, but then the author took it
>in a different direction than I would have, so I'm taking that universe and
>writing my own stories for it.  I call this one Dawning 8A." <vbg>

/me screams and tears out hair... ;D  Some fine young fan one time didn't
know
about Dawning 2 and wrote a sequel of his own. He asked if I'd like to see
it
and I said "Sure!" (hey, I'm amenable to flattery :) He sent it but had no
concept of how email works so I only got a few paragraphs :(

>I think it's great that people will pass off characters/story set-up when
>they are done with them, or don't have the time or interest to continue
>with the universe.

And isn't it... great that the original show was written with so many gaps
that we can rush in to fill with our own imagination? Think of trying to
write
fanfic for seaQuest... "The dolphin did this, the dolphin did that... the
sub
surfaced, the sub hit the bottom..." Well, no one could ever accuse it of
being
Moonlighting... ;)

>But when the orginal author says "thanks for your interest, but I really
>want to keep this universe for myself and write my own sequel to this
>story", I think other fic writers should respect that.

Agreed. I had an idea about a brief scene in the pilot that I have not yet
gotten around to writing a full story for and probably won't, so I mention
it
in D17 (now on my site). If people would like to write a full story (and I
don't care how many people try it), I'll help out with what few ideas I had
for
it and they can certainly run with it :) Actually, I've put a lot of brief
flashbacks in my series so as to explain something a character is doing now.
Each one could be a fanfic-type story on its own, though would would be
A-plot
type stories.

>>i.e., go for it!
>Within reason. ;)

Respect characters and authors, use the spell checker and proofers, use a
font
and/or line length that is such that the lines don't wrap in an ugly manner,
and
be sure to either tab in paragraphs or double space between them :)

Debby :)
Debby@swcp.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:19:28 -0600
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Debby Stark <debby@SWCP.COM>
Subject:      Re: Looking for Lois Lane
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:21 AM 9/16/97 -0400, I wrote:
>>>>I envisioned Jack knowing (or at least suspecting) but not saying
>anything,<<

Then Zoomway said...

>This would make no difference to me. Since it isn't fanfic, Jack knowing
the
>secret would serve some 'pro-active' purpose on the series supporting
Clark's
>"Superman" side (providing excuses, giving him warnings, in other words,
what
>Lois ended up doing for him) All the more annoying is that no doubt the one
>Jack would have to block against most often would be Lois, and that starts
>sounding like the Ovaltine hour. "Will young Jack keep Clark Kent's secret
>from that nosy female reporter? Stay tuned next week kids for the exciting
>conclusion of "Superman Keeps Girls Outta The Boy's Club"<g>

I, on the other hand, prefer to think positively.  I prefer to think about
complex characterizations and interesting new things for them to do.

Though this "isn't fanfic," I further envision Jack and Jimmy ganging up on
Lois
and Clark over a string of episodes. They could easily act as matchmakers :)

Jack, being of a cunning intelligence and knowing Clark's big secret, as
well
as being Clark's friend, would figure out ways to help Superman get done
with
the job quicker. Or, "support Clark's Superman side," if you wish. Knowing
Superman's proclivity for falling into traps, Jack would think of ways to
help
him avoid them.

This would shorten the A plots considerably, but I think the viewer could
have
suffered through this loss and held on, instead watching the intricate
character development because there would now be time to concentrate on
that.

Jimmy (and this is the Landis Jimmy), knowing Lois much like only a younger
brother can, would make sure that she's not so wrapped up in her work that
she
fails to notices Clark's fumbling attempts to woo her. Hey, bring in Lucy to
do a lot of creative work as well, and maybe even Perry and Alice...

Then, when the spark of love finally ignites the heap of kindling that is
the
potential for a Lois and Clark Romance, Jack and Jimmy, Lucy, Perry and
Alice
and maybe the whole dang newsroom can shake hands over a job well done and
sit
back and watch :)

[Zoomway]
>>>Lois had to learn how to be a friend, and
>>>how to trust. Those weren't things Clark had to learn.

[Me]
>>However, by the end of season two, it looked like he had forgotten them in
>>order to give us a cliffhanger...

[Zoomway]
>I'd say Clark forgot that by the finale of season one. I don't know what he
>was to Lois for the majority of the finale after Lois turned down his
>confession of love, but "friend" doesn't leap to mind.

And to top that, by the end of the cliffhanger, he had no idea that Lois had
dumped Lex at the altar. (There was a line in the script indicating that he
knew she wouldn't go through with it, he had that faith in her, but it was
cut or edited out)

>Clark wasn't completely tested for that "steady as a rock" maturity in 1rst
>season because he hadn't been in a committed relationship. He knew he loved
>Lois, but once she started falling in love with him, the "rock" started to
>show stress marks ;) ...It's obvious that Clark "thought about this..dreamt
about
>this.." when it came to having Lois love him, but did he know really how
hard a
>relationship was to maintain? That you have to work it every day?

Poor characterization all around. Lois seemed to know it had to be worked
on, or
she did by the end of Season Two (and she was very good at working on it).
But
why was it such a mystery to Clark? Was it only because for some reason it
was
practically impossible for him to tell Lois his secret? I don't know...

Some argue that he hadn't had a steady relationship before, and this may be
the
case. However, I don't think this translates into the relationship he wants
being
hard to maintain. If he had not yet had such a relationship of his own,
let's
look at the most influenial relationship he experienced through observation,
that
of Martha and Jonathan. It must have appeared to be a very strong one, since
in WHALTTA, Clark apparently heard only for the first time that his Dad had
to propose four times to his mom. Their only other marital problem seemed to
come
about by misunderstanding, in Witness, after 30 years of marriage, when JK
though
MK was having an affair, then JK wound up buying MK flowers and planning to
fight
for her (which seems to be more than CK thought to do when confronted by the
Scardino Challenge) (sounds like a laundry soap commercial... and guess who
was
the dirty player?)

My point here is, using his parent's relationship as a starting point,
hoping to
make a relationship like that with Lois, and even acting like Jonathan
maybe, and
even though it took Jonathan a lot of plowed fields...

What was Clark's problem? Lois was certainly amenable to a relationship from
The Phoenix onward (and told the truth in BatP, maybe even then). She was a
bundled of psychiatric problems maybe, but she was working on them, she even
knew what she wanted, and theoretically CK knew what he wanted. Everything
should have worked--but for the Superman angle. Clark could have solve that
by
simply telling Lois the truth (and truth was, for example, of paramount
importance
to him even as late as SLV). It wouldn't have been easy, and it would have
been fun for us to watch him fumbling around and Lois being startled...
but... but...

Oh, but they needed to stretch out the episodes and the abc (awful
blundering
corporate) honchos didn't want a romance or something.

Clark Kent, without the experiencing of a previous romance and forgetting
the experience gained by watching his parents, blundered into his
relationship
with Lois Lane and came out looking like a heavily stressed chunk of
granite.

Lois Lane, trying to find romance despite having poor role models (her
parents,
and particularly her mother, who some folcs enjoyed a great deal in seasons
3 & 4),
had the wherewithall to get help (Dr. Frisken) and then get what she wanted,
CK.

And Clark is supposed to be the steady, dependable, mild-mannered member of
this duo? ;)

[snip]

>Well, that was a nice buggy ride, but what I'd said is that Clark never
went
>back to that immature habit of impugning Lois's virtue every time he felt
>hurt or jealous.

One wonders where he learned that habit, too. Surely not from his folks...
weirder and weirder...

>As to anything mentioned above, did he say or do it to
>deliberately hurt Lois?

I don't think he did, not deliberately or with real malice of forethought.
He might have learned to tease from his folks... but I'm not sure what else
he learned from them. I think the results of his actions often did come
across to Lois as being hurtful. It's a credit to her that she was so
flexible.

>>>>We don't know if L&C talked about Kal-el leaving for New Krypton
>(they probably did).<<<
>
>Lois said, "We discussed this, and we decided that Clark should return with
>you to New Krypton"  So yup, they talked it over.

I wish we had seen some of this, some of the terse words, some of the
weeping, some of the sighs...

>>>>Their communication skills improved markedly until Sex,
>Lies and Videotape, when CK decided unilaterally that it was better to tell
>all than suffer the slings and arrows, etc. (it didn't help that the
>citizens was so willing as a whole apparently to believe the worst about
>Superman).<<<<<
>
>Actually, Lois and Clark *did* agree that saving and preserving Superman's
>image and salvaging it from the scandal was the right thing to do. Where
they
>disagreed was on how best that would be served. Clark felt by telling the
>truth, and thus revealing it was impossible for Superman to have had an
>affair with Clark Ken'ts wife since he was both people would be the best
>solution. Lois felt there was a greater truth to be protected and
preserved,
>that of the *public* image of Superman--the hero.

Perhaps I have the order of this all wrong then. I recall (and I only
watched it once) that CK brought his parents in and sat them down (or they
might have remained standing) with Lois and he announced what he was going
to do: tell the world his secret. He might have already mentioned it to his
folks, though, but I recall that Lois was among if not the last one to find
out about this.

Then, seeing that his mind was made up and that he was going to make his
announcement the next day, Lois rushed out to find a better solution. Which,
of course, she did. Hooray, Lois.

>Lois could have much more
>easily dissuaded Clark from his route if she'd gotten hold of the Bewitched
>episode where Samantha gave Darren a dream about what it would be like if
>they told the whole world she was a witch ;)

Definitely! Or if Clark and she had sat back and talked... "You know, we
have
to stop this." "Yeah." "I could just tell the world the truth about
myself..."
"Yeah, but that would be ruining the myth of Superman, and people need
that."
"Yeah, I guess so. There has to be a better way..."

>>>>That was a strange turn about for me. First I thought it was something
>they
>would have talked about before the wedding (when they had time to talk,
>which wasn't much).<<<<
>
>Okay, let's flash backward to a point before they were married. "Clark,
will
>you age at the same rate as a human man?"  "I have so far, Lois" (that's
the
>answer given in the comics ;) What we learned in Brutal Youth is that Clark
>had no idea he wouldn't age normally. If he has aged normally up to
>adulthood, why would he (or anyone else) suspect differently?

Beats me. Why did Lois suspect differently then? It panicked her so much
that she preferred to run away than to talk to him about it. Then again,
"running away" was a tried and true form of "road block" for the series :)

>>>>Second, then she was so overwhelmed about growing old
>(nearly a stereotyped hysterical female)<<<<
>
>That's not how Lois felt. Lois was *not* overwhelmed about growing old. She
>was overwhelmed by the idea that they weren't going to grow old *together*.
>Note all her 'daydreams'. They *aren't* only of Lois being old, they are
her
>being old with a youthful Clark. Lois says, "I know how it sounds, but it's
>not vanity. I don't mind growing old. Honestly. I just don't want to wake
up
>some morning and find out that we've been separated by....time."

It took her most of the episode to say this, too. Yawn.

>For Clark, it's another issue entirely. He'll have to live on at least
>another lifetime without Lois. His is truly the more painful fate.

He could also, of course, *die* the next day, anyone can, but particularly a
fellow who throws himself into battling dangerous criminals. I'm surprised
she
forgot that aspect of it. I would have liked to see a scene of her imagining
herself that same old woman, but this time an old woman remember her long
lost lover...

>>>>I appreciate his sacrifice, but due to her moaning and
>groaning, I was glad to perceive from what CK said that his body had
already
>made up for the difference (i.e., he'd live whatever life he was
genetically
>programmed to, barring Tempus, Lex Jr., etc.).<<<<
>
>Again, I think you misinterpretted Lois's "moaning and groaning" Also, what
>the "compensated" for the loss meant is that he was restored to a 28 (30)
>year old physically as Jimmy was restored to a 22 year old physically, but
>that his lifeforce had been drained to a point that he had lost a lot of
>'future' years. Lois even asks "how many?" So no, he wasn't restored to
>virtual immortality.

That's not what was said, that much I recall. His body had already
compensated.
It had made up the difference, he had revitalized, he was the same as
before.
He still had no clue how long he would live. It might be forever, or he
could
be tricked by Tempus the next day and be gone forever. He was definitely
right
about enjoying the moment. I'm glad that at last she saw that, too.

>>>True, considering that everyone had forgotten he wasn't human...<<<
>
>If they'd forgotten he was human, then Clark wouldn't have made an
>appointment with Dr. Klein to see if they could produce a child
>together...uh, Lois and Clark, not Clark and Klein<g>

That's my very point. I certainly expect them to *try*, on the ceiling, on
the kitchen floor, or wherever they wanted, and have lots of fun at it! But
to go
into the marriage assuming they could have kids ("Opps!" she forgot her
protection...), I thought that was silly and contrary to the fact of his
being
not human.

>>>>Which I see was Perry's job to administer, not some one who had been on
>the job a lot less longer than she had<<<<

>The only way it would have been Perry's job to administer a "comeuppance"
to
>Lois is if he *knew* what she'd done, but he did not. Should Clark have
gone
>to Perry and ratted on Lois?

Why didn't first season Perry, who was forever gliding through the newsroom
(note his characterization in Witness), his finger in every pie, no word
escaping him,
know about her actions? I suspect that he did know. I wouldn't expect Clark
to rat on Lois because I would expect Perry to already know about it. This
even works with your clever scenario. Perhaps Perry was testing Clark to see
what he would do...

>>>>No, Perry, but Perry must have approved of her methods, maybe even
>encouraged her...<<<<<

>Where in Neverending Battle is it indicated that Perry *knew* Lois stole
>Clark's story?

It isn't. I simply don't agree that Clark was the right one to tell Lois how
to
do her job. I think that was for Perry to do. It isn't indicated that Perry
liked
how Lois was doing her job... but then neither had he fired her for how she
was
doing it. Did Clark stop to think: Mr. White appreciates the way Lois is
doing her job, which includes what I see as stealing stories. Maybe he did.
Who knows. He seemed to think: I don't like how she's doing her job, so I'll
teach her a lesson.

Then, later, he finds out he was wrong about her basic nature, that under
her frenzied surface is a person who really cares, and he wants to abort his
lesson but (naturally) he fails to act in a strong enough manner to stop
what he put in motion.

Is there the chance that (first season) Perry, being the boss and knowing
Lois
better that CK did at that point, didn't act because he knew Lois was just
going
through a phase? Even she admitted she had never stollen stories before.
Maybe
Perry knew she would get over it soon enough. Clark, on the other hand, even
back
then, was showing signs of a budding "immature habit of impugning Lois's
virtue every time he felt hurt."  ;)

>...This was between Lois and Clark. This was
>*Clark* letting Lois know that he wasn't going to tolerate her behavior.
This
>was *Clark* demanding respect from her.

     Clark, sitting quietly at his desk, speaking from the heart, looking
right at Lois (note that the newsroom is nearly empty). "Lois, I don't
appreciate you stealing other people's stories."
     "Oh, Clark, grow *up*!"
     "Lois, I'm 2xx years old, and I don't appreciate your stealing other
people's stories..."
     Lois glares at him.
     Clark looks right back at her, calmly but steadily.
     "Oh..."
     He continues to watch her, very calmly. (I picture Martha Kent doing
this kind of thing.)
     "Clark, it's... I've never done this kind of thing before!" insert
dialogue much like that she used confessing to Lucy. Clark is surprised--he
thought stealing stories was a common practice for Mad Dog Lane.

I think as soon as Lois knew that her partner was on to her and would not
play
along any more, and as he learned that stealing stories wasn't a usual
course of
action for her, both of them would have wound up understanding each other
better.

I freely admit that of course this would never work on TV. Clark had to be
shown as the more mature member of the partnership and making Lois look like
a bitchy fool was the only way to do it. :(

>>>>Does it not occur to him
>that it might *hurt* even a strong man? Or does he have no experience
>shaking hands? I know TV is visual... and that TV viewers actually do think
>about what they see on the screen (otherwise we wouldn't have this group :)
>So gags should be very carefully considered...<<<
>
>Average TV viewers know it's a sight gag and that it was done for humor and
>aren't going to dwell on, or even consider the greater implications of
Clark
>slipping for a moment while shaking Perry's hand too firmly. They just
>aren't. Rabid fans, sure,

     pardon me, but I prefer to be known as an "above average" viewer :)

>but not someone who is just watching for a fun
>diversion. I just relax and enjoy the sight gags. They don't bear much
>analysis, though I was sent a chat log that had four pages worth of
analysis
>of the sneeze differences in ASU and HIWTHI. The conclusion reached after
all
>that important analysis was that the writers cared nothing for continuity
in
>HIWTHI because that sneeze didn't show continuity to the first one<g>

Geesh. The sneeze in ASU was caused by dust. My *cats* sneeze due to dust.
The surprise factor of it caused the super-ness of it.

The sneeze in HIWTHI was due to impending Kryptonian flu and CK probably
felt
it coming and could control it. No mystery there. :)

>>>>*but* who just realized that this conversation has been on the
>Fanfic List, so we're keeping it alive :)<<<<

>Is this a good thing, Miri? 'Course it is.<g>

Ya betcha sweet bippie!

>Zoomway@aol.com (and I loved the sight gag of Superman zipping in and out
the
>window fulfilling Lois's 'idle fantasies' ;)

Well, we know where to go to find out what CK's idle fantasies are... ;)

Debby
Debby@swcp.com
who notes that at 5:16pm,
the sun is shining over a very damp Albuquerque,
for the second time today...
Depending on where one is in the city,
from 1 to 2" of rain for today alone...
a good 1/10 of our yearly average in one day :)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 18:38:45 -0700
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Sara Kraft <tmax@AZSTARNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ideas (a tad off teh subject)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Kathy B wrote:

>Would I take legal action against my fellow FoLC for copyright
>infringement?  No, of course not.  This isn't about "what's legal".

Well....legal action....copyright infringement.....now why does that sound
familiar?  Oh yeah...I just thought it would be slightly humorous if one
FoLC took another FoLC to court over fanfic 'copyright infringements'.   The
verdict: <judge speaking> "Under the circumstances, I'm dismissing this case
on the grounds that neither of you seem to know what copyright laws are.
Baliff, send the evidence over to DC comics.  Case dismissed."

Okay...just a random babbling, which gave me a laugh, so I thought I'd
share.  =)

Sara Kraft (tmax@azstarnet.com)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:17:37 -0700
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Sara Kraft <tmax@AZSTARNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Looking for Lois Lane
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>>>>True, considering that everyone had forgotten he wasn't human...<<<
>>
>>If they'd forgotten he was human, then Clark wouldn't have made an
>>appointment with Dr. Klein to see if they could produce a child
>>together...uh, Lois and Clark, not Clark and Klein<g>
>
>That's my very point. I certainly expect them to *try*, on the ceiling, on
>the kitchen floor, or wherever they wanted, and have lots of fun at it! But
>to go
>into the marriage assuming they could have kids ("Opps!" she forgot her
>protection...), I thought that was silly and contrary to the fact of his
being
>not human.

Or for that matter....they'd obviously discussed protection if "'Opps!' she
forgot her protection...", but did they discuss if the protection would even
be effective or not? Had they broached that subject, I'm sure the others
would have natuarlly followed (can they produce a child? when do they want
to have a child?). The fact that protection was (obviously?) discussed leads
me to believe that the writers thought poorly not to include this or the
discussions it would invoke.  Now, I'm sure they didn't want to start into
the Larry Niven theory on family television, but the subject should have at
least been brought up.

Sara Kraft (tmax@azstarnet.com)
----------------------------------------------------------
"There's no such thing as gravity,
it's the earth that sucks..."
                       _Bathroom Wall_

----------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:20:34 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Kathy Brown <kbrown@TOOLCITY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ideas
In-Reply-To:  <3425ADC9.48BA@stthomas.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Ah, a nice juicy thread to sink our teeth into. Doesn't that feel good? <g>

BTW, I felt the same way about "Puzzle" as the rest of you did. When it
came out, I wrote to the author asking if why it was written (not in an
angry way, just curious). I wondered if maybe she had just ended a
relationship and this was her "therapy". <bg>  In any case, I never got any
reply back from her.  Then I realized she wrote "Molly", too, and I sensed
a theme ...

Ahead, combo on "Ideas"

At 6:29 PM -0500 9/21/97, Alyssa Mondelli wrote:

>Back to discussion #1 - I haven't asked Kristi about doing this because
>(a) I haven't seen her around the list in ages and (b) the way I write
>fiction, it *may* be finished before TNT drops the reruns from their
>lineup. Maybe. But I always intended to track her down before I let
>anyone else read the finished product, since it would be a direct sequel
>and not simply a takeoff on her basic idea - a distinction others have
>mentioned.

Let me add something to my opinion, based on this discussion so far.  I
think trying to contact the author of the fic counts for a lot. If you try
to contact them and the email bounces, then I don't have the same concerns.
I think a good faith effort, especially if the person has dropped out of
Folcdom, should suffice.   And, as Gary said (and yes, Gary, I was talking
about your stories in my orginal post), her email we have for her no longer
exists.

At 7:36 PM -0400 9/21/97, Pam Jernigan wrote:

>And when Kathy mentioned " I've read sequels from non-orginal authors
>that have been great and in keeping with the orginal, even one giving an
>"unhappy ending" story a "happy ending".  " I immediately thought of
>Zoomway's "If you can't beat 'em (Joe's Story)" and "Join 'em" by Kari
>Umbrect??  I still don't like the original (sorry, Zoomway! <g>) but the
>sequel is very nice, and fits nicely with the original.

Yes! I like those stories, too!  And I didn't mind the first story ...
though I liked the how the two stories went together.  Like the WHAM is OK
as long as we get a satisfying WAFF at the end.   Interesting idea.  I
wouldn't have wanted it done on the show, but that's the great thing about
fanfic.

At 7:19 PM -0600 9/21/97, Debby Stark wrote:

>I think if a person has a good idea inspired by another person's fanfic
>story, yet that other person is against person B writing a new story based
>on their story... keep the idea in mind and try approaching it from another
>direction without any references to the first story.  This will give the
>budding writer practice in pleasing tough editors as well as pleasing
>themselves.  The resulting stand-alone story may turn out to be better than
>the sequel.

Agreed.  Take the same premise, but put your own back story to it.  Good
advice, Debby.

>And isn't it... great that the original show was written with so many gaps
>that we can rush in to fill with our own imagination? Think of trying to
write
>fanfic for seaQuest... "The dolphin did this, the dolphin did that... the
sub
>surfaced, the sub hit the bottom..." Well, no one could ever accuse it of
>being
>Moonlighting... ;)

LOL!

And finally,

At 6:38 PM -0700 9/21/97, Sara Kraft wrote:

>Well....legal action....copyright infringement.....now why does that sound
>familiar?  Oh yeah...I just thought it would be slightly humorous if one
>FoLC took another FoLC to court over fanfic 'copyright infringements'.
The
>verdict: <judge speaking> "Under the circumstances, I'm dismissing this
case
>on the grounds that neither of you seem to know what copyright laws are.
>Baliff, send the evidence over to DC comics.  Case dismissed."

ROTFL!!!  Exactly, Sara.  "God, I love irony!"  ;)

Kathy

______________________
Kathy Brown
kbrown@toolcity.net
<http://www.toolcity.net/~kbrown/>
KathyB on IRC
______________________